How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?

[Euphonious_Polemic]

“I think the “contra” argument, that a defense attorney would raise if you tried to put those (now dead) people on trial in an international tribunal, would be fairly well crafted and have at least a decent chance of success in some cases, but probably less so in others–this is because the nature of the transfers to the boarding schools varied over time, as did the practices of those schools.”

Excuse. Oh, it’s OK because the nature of how these children were taken away from their parents varied over time.
And an attempt to paint this issue as being in the far past, with everyone concerned “now dead”

"Another wrinkle is some of these schools, perhaps even all of them, would not meet the definition of “transfer” of children. Some of the schools were day schools, and the children were sent home at the end of the day. "

Excuse. Some of the schools were day schools, so the many, many schools where the students were hundreds or thousands of miles away do not count. Some of the children who were not dead and merely anally raped got to go home for a bit, so it’s all good.

“Even the residential schools, at least in my research, ordinarily included breaks from the school in which the children were sent home. This would make it problematic to get a ruling that these schools represented the idea of a forcible transfer of children”

Excuse. It was not a "forceable transfer in your opinion, therefore a “ruling” (on genocide?) could not be obtained by your fictitious tribunal. In fact, the Canadian Truth and Reconcilliation Commission has already made this “ruling” and has found it to be cultural genocide. So your fictitious tribunal can get stuffed

“even if you can quibble about the legal definition of genocide vis-a-vis the boarding schools, there are innumerable and likely many forgotten to history cases of clear, deliberate and physical genocide by white settlers and their governments of Native Americans.”

Excuse. Other bad things happed to Indegenous people’s, so the residential schools are not genocide.

I’m sure you’ll do a great job of misinterpreting all of your excuses that you wrote earlier, in your attempt to downplay the residential schools tragedies.

Keep on denying you wrote what you wrote though. It’s amusing.

[Martin_Hyde]

None of those fit even a textbook, dictionary definition of excuse. If you actually read the post of mine you are quoting from, you’ll actually note I never specifically say that I think in general Canadian residential schools would not fit the 1948 UN Convention definition of genocide. I simply said there would be a strong argument that could be put forth that they didn’t, in many circumstances (especially the ones that were not-boarding schools and that were not populated through use of force.) By the way, even had I explicitly said I did not think the residential schools would fit the 1948 definition (which I did not) I specifically make clear that said convention doesn’t have a monopoly on defining genocide, and that something can be a genocide even if it doesn’t meet that definition. This discussion has been split among like four different threads and all over the place, but long ago in I believe the DrDeth thread there was a brief argument about whether the clear text of the 1948 Convention applied, I said something to the effect of “it’s not entirely clear cut”, Lance interjected some stupid idiocy, and then the thread moved in another direction. Not feeling his lust for stupid had been exhausted, Lance re-energized the argument later in another thread. I was never the one keeping the 1948 Convention aspect alive.

It seems like there is some fairly clear elements of my post that you missed, I note that you don’t link to or quote it using the board’s own tools here. I wonder if that is because people would see what my clear intent with that post had been if you provided easy access to it in its entirety.

[crowmanyclouds]

The ‘money shot’ for those that don’t click the link,

@Martin_Hyde

{…} Also, the majority of this board is nothing but the representation of the worst and most despicable section of America. Degenerates, the mentally ill, the unwashed masses of extreme leftism that are literally a cancer upon mainstream society. The more credible I’m held by a bunch of degenerates the worse off I am as a person.

[Banquet_Bear]

Family wants apology after pastor throws out shoes left on Catholic church steps to honour Indigenous children.

…

Removal of the shoes sparked controversy on social media, and Sebastian said he only learned afterward why the shoes were left on the steps.

But Ne Hiyawak, who uses they/them pronouns, believes Sebastian was aware of the memorials around Canada. They added the condition of the shoes was symbolic “of what these children went through. They were put through hell.”

“Those children were treated like they were dirty.”

…

On June 8, at least a dozen people showed up with shoes, toys and other mementos to create another memorial, which Sebastian approved — but he still threw out the original shoes Ne Hiyawak left the day before.

“Not even one shoe was good enough for anything … they were torn and good for no one,” Sebastian said in an interview on Friday.

“If you are doing a memorial, you put nice shoes … when a person dies, you don’t put artificial flowers on top of a casket.”

They left shoes at church to honour Indigenous children. A pastor threw them...

…I was the first person to use the word genocide in the unmarked grave thread. But in my first post I provided clear context. I quoted from and provided a link to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada’s 2015 report. In that report they stated:

Cultural genocide is the destruction of those structures and practices that allow the group to continue as a group. States that engage in cultural genocide set out to destroy the political and social institutions of the targeted group. Land is seized, and populations are forcibly transferred and their movement is restricted. Languages are banned. Spiritual leaders are persecuted, spiritual practices are forbidden, and objects of spiritual value are confiscated and destroyed. And, most significantly to the issue at hand, families are disrupted to prevent the transmission of cultural values and identity from one generation to the next.

In its dealing with Aboriginal people, Canada did all these things.

Using the word genocide, in this specific context, didn’t seem to be particularly uncontroversial to me. But apparently not.

But it really doesn’t matter. Because it doesn’t matter what I say people aren’t going to listen to me. Because everyone has been debating this for days. But you are all missing the point.

In New Zealand.

Whānau Ora is calling out Oranga Tamariki for it’s “abuse of power and racial profiling” in a new report which details a baby uplift that involved “heavily armed cops and police dogs”.

…

In a statement this morning, Whānau Ora said 14 armed police were used by the government agency to uplift a five-month-old Māori baby from a single mum.

“Police and Oranga Tamariki staff converged on the home of the single mum to execute an uplift order that had been green lighted by the Family Court without the whānau receiving any prior notification,” the statement says.

'They're stealing our children from their beds' - Oranga Tamariki blasted...

Today Newsroom launch a powerful new video story by investigations editor Melanie Reid into the attempted ‘uplift’ of a newborn baby from its mother at a maternity ward by the children’s agency Oranga Tamariki.

For the first time, the process involved in taking a baby from its mother is laid bare. The filming of a video by Newsroom , carried out in the hospital room, shows the pressure a young Māori mother is subjected to as she tries to keep her seven-day-old baby.

…

Three Māori babies a week are being ‘uplifted’ from their mothers and of 283 babies taken into care last year, more than 70 percent were Māori or Pasifika.

…

The documentary contains detailed footage from inside the mother’s hospital room as officials repeatedly attempt to persuade her to give up the child. At one point Oranga Tamariki officials arrived at night after her whānau had left her alone with her week-old baby in the room and did not relent until a 2am intervention by a tribal leader and police commander.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/113395638/new-zealands-own-stolen-generation-the-babies-taken-by-oranga-tamariki

In Canada.

In the 20th century, the U.S. and Canada carried out a quiet genocide against Indigenous women through coerced sterilization. In 2019, it’s still happening.

…

The data is sparse but significant: Anywhere from 25 to 50 percent of the Indigenous women of reproductive age in the U.S. were sterilized in the 1970s. In Canada, over 1000 Indigenous women were sterilized between 1966 and 1976, according to Karen Stote, researcher and author of An Act of Genocide , one of the only books on the history of forced sterilization in Canada.

In the 1970s, both the U.S. and Canada stopped promoting pro-sterilization policies. But they didn’t outlaw them either.

…

Now more than 100 Indigenous women from various nations in the region have come forward to say they were coerced or forced into a sterilization procedure as recently as 2018. Many are part of a class-action lawsuit led by Indigenous rights attorney Alisa Lombard, which has been developing since 2017. The women are calling for sweeping reform to the health system, and $7 million (CAD) each in damages.

But most importantly, perhaps, they are calling for a recognition of colonial and genocidal practices that never ended.

Indigenous Women in Canada Are Still Being Sterilized Without Their Consent

Investigation finds widespread racism and discrimination against Indigenous peoples in B.C. health-care system.

84% of Indigenous people who took part in investigation reported discrimination in system.

…

“I am afraid to go to any hospital. When I do have to, I dress up like I’m going to church,” states a young Indigenous woman quoted in the report.

An Indigenous doctor is quoted as saying: “I have been asked to look after my ‘drunk relatives’ in the ER or have had Indigenous patients [who were considered difficult patients] reassigned to me on the wards when I was a resident.”

…

Turpel-Lafond was asked to lead the investigation after it was revealed that hospital emergency staff were allegedly playing a “game” where they would guess the blood-alcohol content of Indigenous patients.

…

Assumptions about substance use were among the many stereotypes the report found were commonly ascribed to Indigenous patients. The investigation then linked how stereotypes can lead to discriminatory care and how this can harm one’s health.

“Those stereotypes kill,” said Tania Dick, a nurse practitioner and member of the First Nations Health Council.

She recounted the death of her aunt as one such example.

She said her aunt was taken to an emergency room after falling and hitting her head. But when she arrived, Dick said health-care staff assumed she was intoxicated.

By the time they realized something serious was going on, Dick said it was too late. She said her aunt — who was experiencing a brain bleed — died while being transferred to a major regional hospital.

Investigation finds widespread racism against Indigenous peoples in B.C....

Fishermen form crowd outside lobster pound

Twenty-four hours after it began, it came down to this: Some 30 members of the Sipekne’katik First Nation, protecting a lobster storage space Wednesday, suspiciously eyeing the 200 non-Indigenous fishermen whose trucks lined the narrow road along St. Mary’s Bay as far as the eye could see.

…

The previous night, somebody had severely damaged the water-filtration system in the warehouse, and torched a van in the parking lot.

In another incident on Tuesday, a Sipekne’katik fisherman found himself trapped in another lobster storage facility in nearby West Pubnico, as a mob of about 200 men gathered, some hurling rocks and racist insults, and refusing to disperse when police arrived. They had come for the lobster the fisherman had caught that day, and when he was finally able to leave the building the catch was plundered.

…

“I can’t believe how they are getting away with these terrorist, hate-crime acts, and the police are there.”

…

Then the angry crowd showed up.

“You could hear them kicking the doors, busting the side of the building with rocks,” Marr said. “Once the RCMP showed up, I thought we would be able to get out of there, but the RCMP just stood there.”

Marr said he stayed in the pound, dodging rocks thrown by members of the crowd, until things calmed down and he could leave.

‘The RCMP just stood there’: Attack on Mi’kmaq fishery sparks tense standoff,...

In Australia.

Almost three years on from the royal commission into Don Dale, every single child in detention in the Northern Territory is Aboriginal, the NT social policy scrutiny committee has been told.

But as one committee member said the system was “broken”, Territory Families said it was still “not ready” to implement some of the royal commission’s key recommendations, including raising the age of criminal responsibility to 12 years old, and the age of detention to 14.

Department officials told the committee, which held public hearings into proposed changes to youth justice laws on Thursday, there are 24 children – 22 boys and two girls – in detention in the NT and they are all Aboriginal.

'System is broken': all children in NT detention are Aboriginal, officials say

Next time you’re urged to ponder how far we’ve come as a nation, remember the 474 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who have died in custody.

…

The true history, of course, was slowly being written. A shocking history of Indigenous repression involving the attempted genocide through frontier murders of tens of thousands of Indigenous people and the stealing of the children, the cruelty of the missions and the “protectors”, the rapes, the dispossession, the disease and the chain gangs.

Now, draw a line from the generational trauma and disadvantage stemming from this colonial and postcolonial crime scene to the massive disparity in imprisonment rates of Indigenous Australians, often for crimes that most white people would never be jailed for. Non-payment of fines. Driving offences. Public drunkenness. Vagrancy.

Identify the problem. Ignore the recommended solutions in the full national knowledge that to do so would lead to more Indigenous deaths in custody. Forget about it. Move on.

In that context, it is chilling to read aloud a couple of numbers.

The first is 474.

The second: five.

The 474 is the number of individual Indigenous people who have died in custody since the royal commission report, delivered 30 years ago this Thursday. Five, the number of those individuals who have died in custody since the beginning of March 2021.

Indigenous deaths in custody have received just a fraction of the media...

For greater context: Indigenous Australians are 3% of the population, but are 29% of the prison population.

I could go on. There are many stories that hit the headlines. But countless more that do not.

Here’s the point.

This never stopped.

This isn’t history.

You are still stealing our children.

You are still burning down our buildings, our businesses.

You are still locking us away.

You are still killing us.

I’m sure this intellectual discussion on what is and isn’t genocide is important to many.

But I’d much rather you just stopped looking away.

Thank you MrDibble for seeing me, and for hearing me. The thread in ATMB made me feel heard for the first time I think on these boards. I can’t tell you how hurtful it was to be cast in the role of the “angry brown person”, that apparently my anger make me blow all of this out of proportion, that I am taking things the wrong way. I’ve been here since 2002. I’ve posted as passionately here about misogyny on the boards, on transphobia, and never been treated like this.

There is a reason why it is important that you listen. There is a reason why our voices should be heard. And there is a reason why people like me stop posting here.

[MrDibble]

@Banquet_Bear

Thank you MrDibble for seeing me, and for hearing me.

Kia ora.

@Banquet_Bear

I can’t tell you how hurtful it was to be cast in the role of the “angry brown person”, that apparently my anger make me blow all of this out of proportion, that I am taking things the wrong way.

I know that feel only too well, bro.

@Banquet_Bear

And there is a reason why people like me stop posting here.

…and that one. But I’ve resolved not to let the bastards win.

And this:

@Banquet_Bear

This never stopped.

This isn’t history.

You are still stealing our children.

You are still burning down our buildings, our businesses.

You are still locking us away.

You are still killing us.

I don’t think even most allies really get this.

[thorny_locust]

@Banquet_Bear

There is a reason why it is important that you listen. There is a reason why our voices should be heard. And there is a reason why people like me stop posting here.

Please stay.

[Kron]

Echoing @thorny_locust.

Both @Banquet_Bear and @MrDibble are two of the highlights of this board.

Thank you, Banquet_Bear, for the post above. I was not aware of just how bad it continues to be outside of the US. We also still have problems with the treatment of indigenous people here in this country; it’s mostly dealt with by just keeping folks penned up in absolute poverty on the reservations and then trying our damnedest to forget about them, but there have been issues with taking children as well. I like that term from one of your cites, uplift… it’s fitting that such a term is defined with nothing but positive terms in Merriam-Webster, when the reality of it is horrible… it is the most egregious example of patronage I can think of- that only WE can raise your kids to have a “better” life; you just aren’t capable.

[MrDibble]

When I saw that usage, the first thing I thought of was SciFi authorDavid Brin.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

The coronavirus has been very illuminating about what Native American tribes in the US have to deal with, how shitty things are in reservations and how little larger American society cares or is affected unfortunately (and I’m definitely included in that criticism of larger American society).

Also as bad as it is to just passively allow them to languish, it’s the reality is worse in that America ignores the reservations up until we realize that we can make a quick buck by yet again violating their sovereignty or rights.

[MrDibble]

Martin_Hyde replying

Ooh, this should be fascinating

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

@MrDibble

Ooh, this should be fascinating

You probably didn’t realize that Australia never genocided people on Sundays. A very important detail.

[Martin_Hyde]

How are people kept “penned up” in the reservations? You do realize we don’t lock the gates to them? We don’t circle them with fences. I’d certainly agree there’s high poverty rates on reservations, and poverty is a shackle for mobility in any number of ways.

@DeadTreasSecretaries

The coronavirus has been very illuminating about what Native American tribes in the US have to deal with, how shitty things are in reservations and how little larger American society cares or is affected unfortunately (and I’m definitely included in that criticism of larger American society).

Also as bad as it is to just passively allow them to languish, it’s the reality is worse in that America ignores the reservations up until we realize that we can make a quick buck by yet again violating their sovereignty or rights.

Poverty and a number of other services has always been wretched on the reservations, but I’m not sure what policies people have in mind to easily fix it. There’s at least some overlaps between the issues facing reservations and certain deeply impoverished minority-majority urban neighborhoods, and I think “we”, being the collective West across a number of countries have tried out a lot of different schemes. Is there anything to actually be done for it? My inclination is usually “more money” is a decent baseline.

Going back to the “penned” comment above, is one solution to provide funding (through individual grants) to native families that want to relocate off-reservation? There’s probably a non-zero number that are stuck there out of generational poverty that would likely do better living almost anywhere else.

[MrDibble]

@DeadTreasSecretaries

You probably didn’t realize that Australia never genocided people on Sundays. A very important detail.

It’s just a “historical fact”, and therefore must be mentioned. Ad nauseum. It’s worth it.

[Martin_Hyde]

That’s funny because I have a similar reaction whenever I see you replying to a thread, but more the thought of “great, I get to read an angry idiot who cries about everything spew another low intelligence post onto the boards.”

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

Oh no, I think there are plenty of times where after a genocide occurs there is no possible adequate remedy for the nations that were decimated.

I think when that happens, at a BARE minimum people should raise as much awareness as possible to prevent it happening in the future. I also think giving a group of people that has been historically decmiated more political power and giving them more reparations on an unconditional basis are also options.

There are German Jewish traditions that my family has lost forever but at least the country that did it to us is really proactive and vigilant about teaching people how awful it was and how to avoid letting it ever happen again.

[MrDibble]

Ooh, “low intelligence”, that’s very retro-racist of you. Like 2013 all over again.

Can’t decide if that’s better or worse than “bleating sheep”, though…

[Martin_Hyde]

I don’t disagree with that, but I also think the existing native Americans might care more about actually seeing quality of life improvements. Like their material life situation isn’t improved by “awareness” campaigns about bad things that happened 50+ years ago.

One thing I find fairly shitty about the left in general is it spends way more effort on these wonky intellectual college educated discussion about history, pushing for greater recognition in academia etc for past bad things but seems to drum up way less energy into actually dealing with present day issues relating to these people. Like it’s cool we recognized the American genocide. It’s a shame almost no American can find the country of Armenia on a map, or is doing fuck all to help Armenia right now–a country that is under continual military threat from Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani patron Turkey.

[Martin_Hyde]

Post count increasing, worthwhile post count staying the same, sad.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

Yes, to hell with the left and their… checks notes… not getting involved in the Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict.

[MrDibble]

@Martin_Hyde

Post count increasing, worthwhile post count staying the same, sad.

Don’t be so hard on yourself. I’m sure if you put the effort in, the worth of your posts can increase.

Not by much, mind you. No-one expects miracles. But look at where you’re starting from - any tiny improvement would be a win. Turn that into a , trouper.

Good luck. We’re all counting on you.