I would agree with the speaker that it does (of course, what level constitutes a “certain level” is up for debate, it’s kind of a fuzzy term). In fact, Nero (who has never been known as one of the better heads of government of all time, especially w.r.t. Christians) was the leader being referred to in at least one of those places.
As far as the other board is concerned - it seems like it’s being run by another person who has confused and conflated American Jingoism with Christianity. Ah well.
Perhaps he or she was referring to Matthew 22:21, "They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. "
vanilla, please, I’m sure there are books that advocate your political beliefs which are written by sane people. If you want to persuade others, trying to give them David Icke books, even ones that don’t mention Reptilians, isn’t the best avenue. I no longer give Hal Lindsey & John Birch Society books to my non-C’tian friends and those books are way milder than Icke’s stuff.
I really hope that both sides can dump the “anti-American” label on opponents (it’s more prevalent being slung by the Right but the Left can toss it back occasionally also)- I will say that Moore is “anti-MYVisionOfAmerica” and I think he’s a wretched boor & thus have no plans to see the movie but I’m not going to lambast people who see & discuss the movie, tho I may vigorously argue with them about certain points (Our reason for the Afghan War being a natural gas pipeline?!?!) I certainly won’t doubt their C’tianity (tho I believe Biblical C’nity is not pacifistic).
Mahaloth, how do you have F9/11 on DVD?
Friar, ha! Yes, but they had never heard of him.
Imagine if they’d read it.
They would ot like it, as Icke is sane sometimes and does mention in one of the books that religion was made up to control the populace.
I am in the midst of reading Larry Flynt’s book Sex Lies and Politics, which is EXcellent!
Doubt they would read it either.
I recommend it.
And its sane.
How can you argue about it if you don’t see the movie? Don’t accept second-hand accounts of what it says, because even the major news outlets have gotten that wrong (the Newsweek article that claimed to “debunk” Moore’s account of Bin Ladens leaving the country after 9/11, for example).
Some food for thought, maybe; here’s some Bible verses I found regarding respecting those in power. I really have no idea how a Christian might apply passages such as these to leaders such as Hitler; nor do I know if these passages make up an absolute command to respect anybody in power. I do suspect a balanced view of all the Scriptures would authorize anybody under a Hitler (or a Nero or a Pharoah) to fight and resist him.
In a democracy such as the U.S., the President doesn’t have absolute power in the way these Biblical rulers had power, of course. The real authority in this country is our Constitution, I believe – which clearly allows the adversarial political system which we have, which doesn’t set politicians up as infallible kings, which distrusts centralized authority in general. I think Moore is perfectly in line with all Constitutional principles in making his film.
On to the Bible passages, which I am not qualified to comment on individually. This is merely an arbitrary selection of verses which imply (to me) that God has set our temporaral rulers where they are.
(Sorry if all this Bible-quotin’ comes across as witnessing in the wrong forum! Not my intent. Just responding to inquiries about the source of my original comment in this thread.)
It’s more likely to have been Romans 13:1-7:
Clearly there are problems with these verses, and if I’m right in thinking that this is the passage which inspired the reported “one ought to have some measure of respect for rulers”, then whoever said that is more or less in the middle of the road as regards interpretation. It is of course difficult to argue that Paul means we ought to respect all governing authorities at all times, as the ubiquitous reference to Nazi Germany will remind us…
But then 1st century Rome was not 20th century Germany. I really really seriously hope that no serious Christian teacher is yet complacent enough to teach unquestioning submission to governmental leaders, so unless your man is clearly a member of a church given to concocting its own theology as it suits them, it’s pretty important to allow him his default attitude of respect, for it’s likely to be founded in moderation, not madness.
Personally I can understand a degree of impatience with persistent, instinctive attacks on all and any leaders - it makes it all the harder to see a Hitler when one appears. Maybe this is what the person is concerned about. It’s not really my position, I tend to think Moore does have a duty to attack Bush, because it’s what he believes and it’s where his talents lie. I happen to agree with him. I do wish we weren’t all herded into “left” and “right” camps, and told what we think… real life is so much more complex!
Ooof! Reductionism. Not all that easy to argue satisfyingly. Much more “sane” to point out that while religion may have some benefits as a tool for controlling the populace, to suggest that that is its one and only utility is perhaps a little… hmmm.
Why on earth am I arguing with David Icke?!?
This is a good point, but we must remember that boycotting films is still considered an effective protest, and besides, going to the movies costs money. Thus:
Suppose someone released “Rotten.com, the movie”, and also argued that it was a strong argument against God’s existence. The “entertainment” approach to the images on Rotten.com will severely prejudice me against seeing the film, even though one might well argue that nasty deaths and horrific injuries are good arguments against God’s existence. In fact you could probably put a pretty convincing movie together if you were actually arguing something, as I imagine Moore is.
My own problem is that Moore has in the past tended toward lame satire, the very unfunniness of which tended severely to undermine the points he had to make. For me, at least. Many thought it was a great show. But I’ve never seen him do much successful arguing, or not really… I hope I’ve just missed it. I do sorta kinda wonder whether he actually expects to change anyone’s mind. He is clearly an intelligent and talented filmmaker, and has a genuine passion in his gut, but maybe someone else might tell us whether or not they actually found him persuasive of things they didn’t already believe.
I have yet to see the film.
Sorry, I had that post on the screen for a looong time and missed masonite’s post. The 1984-ish Ecclesiastes passage may be considered simple survival advice, rather than an official commandment: watch your expression and your tongue when it occurs to you that the boss is a jerk, because these people don’t get to be bosses without finding out about that sort of thing rather quickly. That’s very much the style of Ecclesiastes, and I recommend it highly!
“Do not curse the ruler of your people”
Reeder is so going to hell then…
Unless, of course, he’s forgiven. 
:: remembers having cursed all sorts of rulers, and hopes for the best ::
Haven’t seen F9/11 myself, but based on some other Moore works, you could make a case not to see it based on Bible verses like Proverbs 19:5 or Deuteronomy 5:20.
Regards,
Shodan
And you know Moore is lying because Rush told you so, right? :rolleyes:
The only sort-of-new thing I come up with reading this is that I hope everyone is being careful not to fall victim to the temptation to demonize everyone in the group because of the actions of some.
It’s very ironic to say, “Yeah, I hate that very large group for it villifies entire groups.”
He just said “you could make a case”. People do.
Maybe you should think about joining a board that doesn’t confuse religion with politics.
I think he deserves “human” respect, just like anyone else. But I have absolutely no respect for him as a politician. Or as an American. I’m not much for christianity, either, but he even does THEM a disservice.
Maybe you should e-mail the link to this thread to the mod that closed the thread. Then (s)he could see what real political discourse is.
And I was wondering the same thing about Mahaloth’s DVD until I saw his location… Might have something to do with it.
I just saw the movie two days ago. To me, it was shocking…
Oh, don’t worry about it, Ross. rjung has taken it into his head that “you listen to Rush Limbaugh!” is a devastating insult, but useable outside the Pit.
And it saves him the trouble of actually conducting a reasonable conversation about a point of view other than his own.
Fortunately, this is about the worst he can do, so no worries.
Regards,
Shodan
If you want to go off-topic with personal attacks, go start a thread in The BBQ Pit.