How many have never had a relationship?

[monstro]

Also, regarding introverts and people who say, “I don’t want to talk about how my day is going” it shows a lack of empathy toward others and its not surprising some of them say they are terrible at ‘picking up on signals’ or 'just dont “get” dating". To pick up on signals/know what to do, you have to pay attention to people. Not just pretty women, everybody around you. Introverts spend most of their energy paying attention to themselves, rather than other people. They perceive things like small talk exhausting and pointless because they’re not willing to step outside their bubble and actually try paying attention to other people.

I’m an introvert who has no problem answering “What did you do today?” if I think the person is genuinely curious.

“How was your day?” is a different question. It generally requires a perfunctory answer. “Fine.” And if they actually want to know how my day was, well, they better be prepared for a variation of the theme “fine”. “It was okay, I guess.” “Same ole, same ole, I guess.” If they’re looking for, “OMG! It was TOTALLY AMAZING!!” That ain’t gonna happen, cap’n. Oh well. Guess they’re going to have to find another way to be invasive.

And your assessment of introversion is wrong. They don’t “perceive” small talk as anything. Some don’t like it but that doesn’t mean they don’t like talking period. They just dislike the stupid stuff you have to get through in order to have a real conversation. While some have mastered the art of small talk but avoid anything deeper (raises hand). Regardless, it’s not a “perception”, it’s a “feeling”. Introverts DO get tuckered out more easily by social interaction than extroverts. It’s not a weakness. It’s just how they are constructed. But they aren’t perceiving anything.

I would also wager that introverts like myself DO pay attention to what people are doing. We like to observe first, then interact. When I’m in a meeting, I absorb everything people have said, watch them battle it out and stammer out arguments, and then I interject when everyone’s getting frustrated and deadlocked. Because I finally have put the pieces together in my head and see where the communication block is. Extroverts, in general, talk first then think. When I’m at a get-together, I don’t pull my collar up around my head and rock back and forth like I’m autistic. No, I sit down on a sofa and watch the minglers, determining who I should like to talk to when I’m ready to enter the mix and who I should avoid. This way I get to enjoy the party on my terms. Really, you make introverts out to be inherently socially awkward. This is a myth.

People who are extroverts, particularly people who are very sociable/have lots of friends tend to engage others. Rather than talk about themselves, they ask questions about the people around them. Rather than talk/act in a way they are always used to/comfortable with they tailor their speech/vocabulary/body language in a way that engages the people around them. People who 'Wear a lot of Hats" tend to be individuals who are confident in stepping outside their comfort zone to engage other people. These folks tend to not only have a lot of friends, but their friends tend to cross a lot of spectrums of culture/hobbies/demographics. Introverts can have friends, but often they are facsmilies of themselves, which makes them easier to relate to.

Well, why don’t we throw all the extroverts a party and award them with scooby snacks for being more evolved individuals? Or better yet, let’s not and say we did. Extroverts talk about themselves AND engage others to talk about themselves, just like introverts do (I actually do more of the latter than the former, fyi). They just do way more talking in general. And they don’t necessarily have a lot of friends. Some, if not many, extroverts are jerks and assholes who have foot-in-mouth disease, kid around too much, or come across as shallow. And you have to wonder, if a person claims to have a “lot of friends”, are these really friends or just acquaintances? People, especially nowadays, seem to confuse the two. And some extroverts are shy and have no friends. They really are socially awkward. I’ve seen all types. (Because I’m a people-watcher. When you aren’t busy socializing, you learn some things.)

And my experience does not bear witness to your last statement. Two of the most extroverted people I know are married to introverted people. One pair has been married for fifty years now. And you know what? Even if this wasn’t true, big rubber deal! Love is hard to find, and if the only person that warms the cockles of your heart happens to share your common interests, attitudes about life, and personality style…well, you are truly a blessed person. Life is too short to make your social circle more complicated than you are comfortable with, just because someone with a keyboard says it should be.

OK, I have one hobby. But I bet my one hobby is just as cool, if not cooler, than the myriad of activities that a hyperactive extrovert engages in. But then…why should I care what other people do with their spare time anyway? And as long as I’m content, why should anyone care what I do with mine? The extroverts I’ve encountered in life seem way more concerned about what other people are doing with their lives than what they should be doing. This is not a strength. This is a weakness.

If I was interested in having a relationship, I’d have tons of play. My self-esteem is not so broken that I can’t see this. And I am indeed pathologically introverted and would be the first to say so! SO IN YOUR FACE, Mr. Extroverts Are Better People!

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@HumanBear

Well I wouldn’t say I was particularly attractive or seen as a sexy man by women, but I’ve found making friends with females can lead to more after a fair period of time, as long as you are the kind of person who listens and smiles, and is there to help if help is needed. No dating techniques have been required apart from just being a nice person. I realize that being a nice person probably means less sex than being the sexy, slightly pushy person, but in theory it should help you to find that nice partner, and perhaps like yourself more than the serial sex getters.

This “nice partner” may very well be even less likely to make a move than I, so at some point being slightly pushy is required.

I also agree that the veneer of desperation is a turn off, but that’s why making friends without thinking about dating and just spending time with the opposite gender, if that’s the way you swing, can make all the difference.

Okay, but when you’re alone and tend to see most people of the appropriate gender as attractive, it’s hard not to think about dating.

[Anaamika]

FWIW, I didn’t really take Incubus’ statements as aggressive. I am surprised everyone took it that way. :eek: I think he was just trying to help, and as someone who has some strong extroverted streaks, I guess I apologize on behalf of us extroverts. I don’t think he said extroverts were better people, just that maybe they were better at the whole extroverted part…which is what we’re talking about, isn’t it?

But yes, I am in a relationship with an introvert, and I generally prefer introverted, quiet, serious men.

[monstro]

@Anaamika

FWIW, I didn’t really take Incubus’ statements as aggressive. I am surprised everyone took it that way. :eek: I think he was just trying to help, and as someone who has some strong extroverted streaks, I guess I apologize on behalf of us extroverts. I don’t think he said extroverts were better people, just that maybe they were better at the whole extroverted part…which is what we’re talking about, isn’t it?

But yes, I am in a relationship with an introvert, and I generally prefer introverted, quiet, serious men.

You don’t often hear introverts telling extroverts how to live and improve their lives.

But introverts get this ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

Even if the advice is well-intentioned, it annoys nonetheless.

Some of the most socially inept people I know are extroverts. Because all they do is talk, talk, talk. They never listen or stand back and evaluate themselves. Incubus ignores these people in his comparison of introverts and extroverts. He denigrates the former and plays up the attributes of the latter. How convenient that he gets to be on the “good” side.

Extroverts may have an advantage on meeting people. I won’t deny that. But introverts are not lonely by default, and don’t really need coaching advice from an extrovert who makes incorrect assumptions about how they “perceive” the world.

[Anaamika]

I can see that, but I really don’t see where he denigrated pepole. Can you show me where he did so? Plus there are two lines in his post that stuck out to me:

People who are extroverts, particularly people who are very sociable/have lots of friends tend to engage others (snip)
For people who have never been in a relationship but want to be, I think the key above all else is confidence

The line about “people who have lots of friends” stuck out to me - he is not talking about all extroverts, not the bad ones, just the ones that do have a lot of friends, and it’s advice for people who want to change. Not people who are perfectly happy the way they are.

For someone who was an introvert, swung the needle all the way over to an extrovert, and now is leaning back to my introverted stage, I didn’t think it was terrible advice. Some people in this thread did express regrets at not being able to talk to the opposite sex, or not being more social…but again, I can see how it might be construed as annoying and unwanted.

Of course Incubus can speak for himself, and I hope he does.

[Vihaga]

I think the problem is more the assertion that introverts lack empathy and the implication that they’re self-absorbed (spending all their energy on themselves), when that really doesn’t have much to do with being an introvert.

[Anaamika]

Some do, no doubt. I’ve known a few. This advice is just for them.

[bordelond]

@monstro

And some extroverts are shy and have no friends. They really are socially awkward.

I’m familiar with some extroverts having few friends, and some extroverts being socially awkward. But not with extroverts being shy :dubious:

[Vihaga]

@Anaamika

Some do, no doubt. I’ve known a few. This advice is just for them.

Yes, and if he’d said “people who have problems dating” or “some introverts” rather than “introverts are/do X,” he wouldn’t be seen as denigrating them.
There are plenty of narcissistic extraverts that lack empathy, too. Those characteristics aren’t really that relevant to extra/introversion.

[monstro]

@Incubus

Also, regarding introverts and people who say, “I don’t want to talk about how my day is going” it shows a lack of empathy toward others and its not surprising some of them say they are terrible at ‘picking up on signals’ or 'just dont “get” dating". To pick up on signals/know what to do, you have to pay attention to people. Not just pretty women, everybody around you. Introverts spend most of their energy paying attention to themselves, rather than other people. They perceive things like small talk exhausting and pointless because they’re not willing to step outside their bubble and actually try paying attention to other people.

Almost everything in this paragraph is wrong.

Introversion has nothing at all do with lack of empathy. Not wanting to engage in small talk has nothing to do with lack of empathy. You can be extremely compassionate and empathetic and still find the question “How is your day?” to be a chore to answer. Like, if you day isn’t going well, you may not want to answer with the truth because you don’t want to bum the other person out. How is that NOT empathetic? And if your day is swell and you say so, how does that make you MORE empathetic? I find this paragraph to be a hard dig at introversion. A way to pathologize a personality style that is perfectly normal.

Most people do not even understand what “lack of empathy” means. It does not mean heartless or mean. It means not understanding the “why” behind another person’s feelings. When someone asks “How’s your day?” I understand perfectly what they are doing. They’re either filling the silence with polite talk, or they genuinely want to know what my day is like. It’s not rocket science. I don’t think most introverts struggle with this. What they might find annoying is the idea that they must fill the silence with polite talk, but that’s different than “lacking empathy.”

(I admit the “empathy thing” is a hot button of mine. I know there ARE issues that I just cannot relate to…that I do lack empathy for. But that’s ME. Not all introverts.)

People who are extroverts, particularly people who are very sociable/have lots of friends tend to engage others. Rather than talk about themselves, they ask questions about the people around them. Rather than talk/act in a way they are always used to/comfortable with they tailor their speech/vocabulary/body language in a way that engages the people around them. People who 'Wear a lot of Hats" tend to be individuals who are confident in stepping outside their comfort zone to engage other people. These folks tend to not only have a lot of friends, but their friends tend to cross a lot of spectrums of culture/hobbies/demographics. Introverts can have friends, but often they are facsmilies of themselves, which makes them easier to relate to.

Do you see how over-the-top “rah rah, extroverts!” this is? Extroverts don’t talk about themselves? Ha! I wish! And extroverts do not hold a monopoly on self-confidence. Introverts can be quite self-assured themselves. Some of the most arrogant people on Earth are pathologically introverted. In fact, I would wager that introversion promotes self-confidence because it takes a person of strong character to say “no” to the crowd who wants to hang-out or go to another bar or jump off a cliff, just to be “cool”. And introverts “can” have friends? Like, what is that? Isn’t that a sly way of saying they usually don’t? Well, that’s wrong and anyone who knows anything about people would know this. And they would know, too, that there aren’t enough introverts in the world for introverts to only be able to befriend other introverts (their “facsimilies”).

There’s a lot of wrongness and unfairness in Incubus’s post. I’m not bent out of shape about it because he’s just another person with an opinion, but I won’t let wrong go unchallenged.

[monstro]

@bordelond

I’m familiar with some extroverts having few friends, and some extroverts being socially awkward. But not with extroverts being shy :dubious:

You think “shyness” is a sole feature of introversion?

Do you know what “shyness” even is?

[Anaamika]

Yeah, I disagree with that one heavily. Who says extroverts are not shy? I used to be painfully shy, but I overcame it - doesn’t mean I still don’t feel it.

Incubus, come and defend yourself!

[Derleth]

Straight. Male. 27. Nothing.

[bordelond]

@monstro

You think “shyness” is a sole feature of introversion?

Do you know what “shyness” even is?

Sure … I consider myself shy and naturally introverted. However, there could be other ideas about it out there. Let’s see what I get from Googling “shyness, definition”:

“a feeling of fear of embarrassment” - yes, can absolutely apply to extroverts

“Easily startled; timid” - I guess, in the sense that one appears introverted to an outsider temporarily, but warns up easily and turns extrovert?

“Drawing back from contact or familiarity with others” - introvert all the way.

I’m interested in your take, though, monstro – what does a shy extrovert act like in the wild? I didn’t think you were necessarily wrong about it … I just didn’t know what you were getting at.

[bordelond]

@Anaamika

Yeah, I disagree with that one heavily. Who says extroverts are not shy?

I read this post initially as you agreeing with me

So I’ll ask the same question to you: what does a shy extrovert act like?

[msmith537]

Extroversion / introversion according to the Meyers-Briggs personality thingamadoo has nothing to do with shyness/outgoingness. It is whether or not you derive energy from being around people. Introverts can be outgoing and extroverts can be shy. The difference is that the introvert will tend to feel exhausted by feeling like they need to be “on” while the extrovert might feel frustrated that they are not able to engage in interpersonal actions.

And these are personality preferences anyhow. It does not mean one person is a gregarious ass while the other is a shut-in recluse.
Yes, gregarious, outgoing extroverts will be more likely to make interpersonal relationships because that is their preference. It is less of a struggle to make small talk or introduce themselves. If you are introverted, withdrawn and shy, it will be more difficult because when you give the impression you don’t won’t to be bothered, most people who aren’t jerks will try not to bother you.

[bordelond]

@msmith537

Extroversion / introversion according to the Meyers-Briggs personality thingamadoo has nothing to do with shyness/outgoingness. It is whether or not you derive energy from being around people. Introverts can be outgoing and extroverts can be shy. The difference is that the introvert will tend to feel exhausted by feeling like they need to be “on” while the extrovert might feel frustrated that they are not able to engage in interpersonal actions.

I’ve seen the Meyer-Briggs test. What you’re saying makes sense.

Seems like a shy extrovert can often look the same as a shy introvert to an outside observer. I guess the personality difference becomes more apparent once the ice is broken.

[Bosstone]

@bordelond

I’m interested in your take, though, monstro – what does a shy extrovert act like in the wild? I didn’t think you were necessarily wrong about it … I just didn’t know what you were getting at.

This is actually something I’ve been thinking about. I’ve considered myself an introvert for a long time, because I rather like being alone a lot, and I tend to have only a few diehard friends rather than a wide circle of acquaintances. Being in a social setting can wear me out, too; the constant chatter of a bar or a large group at a restaurant just makes me tired. I don’t like to talk much in crowds, and I can rarely get up the nerve to strike up a conversation with someone with whom I don’t have any prior contact.

But in the right circumstances, with people I’m comfortable with, I’m a damn chatterbox. It makes me antsy if I have to go a day without talking to a friend or family member. And if someone strikes up a conversation with me, I’ll gladly join in; I just can’t start a conversation myself most of the time.

Because of this, I’ve been leaning toward the possibility that I’m not entirely an introvert, but rather a shy extrovert. I think too hard about other people and how I’d probably be imposing on their time, so I tend not to put myself forward, but if they make it clear they want to talk to me, I’ll happily talk to them.

[Anaamika]

These days I just call myself a misanthrope - I hate most people, except for the few people I love/like.

But in my life, anyway a shy extrovert is someone who loves chatting and getting to know people, but maybe with conditions or who has trouble starting things up. I have the latter problem, and as for the former, I don’t like groups at all, but I am very chatty with just one or two other people. Groups I find you just get drowned out unless you are willing to shout and be the center of attention and I am not anxious for either.

[lorene]

@monstro

You don’t often hear introverts telling extroverts how to live and improve their lives.

But introverts get this ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

Even if the advice is well-intentioned, it annoys nonetheless.

<snip>
But introverts are not lonely by default, and don’t really need coaching advice from an extrovert who makes incorrect assumptions about how they “perceive” the world.

I’m not sure I entirely agree with your first sentence. I think there’s a lot of misinterpreting and making incorrect assumptions on both sides. This thread has several self-described introverts making it seem as though entroverts are completely shallow attention whores who would rather die than spend a minute by themselves, and that’s an equally unfair and inaccurate assumption.

Not every extrovert needs people around them 24/7. Not every extrovert, while deriving their energy from being around people, needs to be the center of attention. You seem to have a good handle on the fact that introvert =/= shy and extrovert =/= outgoing, but misconceptions abound.