This is exactly the problem. We’re told the issue is politeness, but it’s not. Point out that a poster is always polite, and they’ll be accused of sealioning. Try to follow the rules, and you’ll be accused of using a ‘dog whistle’, and/or being a jerk. Because for these people, it’s ideas themselves that are the problem, not the way they are expressed. That’s why they are always comparing common, majority beliefs to fringe ones like ‘scientific racism’.
And they are dying to get such posters banned for comparatively minor infractions, while others are allowed to rack up years’ worth of warnings and multiple suspensions without being banned.
In my opinion, the chances for Aspidistra have run out. There is no sign they are willing to change.
And Demontree’s claim that she can’t tell the difference between “AMAB shouldn’t be allowed in women’s sports” and “transwomen are actually men” is so obviously disingenuous, there should be…guidance provided to stop the sealioning.
You can’t debate race relations with someone whose worldview is that we should go back to segregated water fountains.
Sure, they can be outwardly polite when discussing test scores, family dynamics, police activity, and the impact of historical redlining, but once we all know what they actually think, is there a point to their input? Am I really interested in discussing the finer points of police directed minority violence with someone who thinks his favorite restaurant should be whites only?
People’s viewpoints aren’t necessarily chiseled into stone. They are pliable. I can understand not wanting to have those kinds of discussions, and you shouldn’t have to if you don’t want to, but having those discussions is what helps people change their minds. Discussions about deeply held social, political, and religious topics will always be contentious. Delving into them will typically mean having heated debates at times. It’s completely understandable that these kinds of discussions may create strong emotional feelings. One thing I think would make the discussions more productive is if people could step back from their emotions even when discussing contentious topics. Treat the discussion more as a structured debate rather than a personal attack. I think that kind of approach will lead to more positive change. I can understand not wanting to have a debate with a bigot, but it’s through that debate that you have the power to change the bigot’s mind. It won’t be quick or easy, but you can make them rethink their beliefs in at least some small way. Eventually, that may make them see things from a different perspective.
Everyone here who compares debating issues like trans women in women’s sports to debating the pros and cons of segregated water fountains or of Nazism.
This is of course ridiculous: the first is actively being debated by sporting bodies, as well as by governments, in the press etc. it’s fairly often brought up by posters in other contexts because it’s a topic of interest. The latter are long-discredited fringe views which few people are interested in discussing.
But for the people who believe these things comparable, there is no way to discuss the larger issue politely. It is not like asking someone to avoid using a slur; their problem is with the sentiments expressed, not the wording used for them.
I agree with you that these people are being ridiculous. But they aren’t the moderators (or even if the moderators personally believe that, they aren’t moderating accordingly).
Andy outlined exactly how you can make the point you want to make without running afoul of the rules.
That doesn’t mean the rules are perfect; for example, I think that if “trans women are biologically male” is banned, which is fine, then the argument “trans women belong in women’s sports because they are women” should also be banned, because that argument is tautological and serves no purpose but to invite contention over the forbidden question of whether or not trans women are women.
But that quibble with the rules doesn’t prevent you from expressing disagreement with the inclusion of trans women in women’s sports, or any other women’s space.