That’s the problem right there. It may NOT be disrespect. It very well may be a long decline of standards on BOTH their parts that now is beyond either of them individually to address. I daresay from the tone of the OP that if he cleaned up his act and pulled his weight around the house she’d be fine with the situation. Poor communication isn’t reason for a divorce.
I don’t doubt that he’s being lazy, he is; but she’s enabling him to do so and has been for 10 years. That won’t change overnight, but the housework issue CAN if they are willing to communicate openly about it. Surely it’s better to attempt something different and find that spark then just say: “well he’s lazy and sloppy, bugger my vows and all that, I’m out!”
I see what you are saying, but the OP’s husband is an adult. It’s not the OP’s job to enforce consequences when her spouse fails to pull his weight. That is what a parent does to a child. Two adults should be able to respond to each other’s needs without the threat of ultimateums and punishments.
That said, I think the OP is also responsible for the letting the house get so messy. Working a lot isn’t excuse an for letting dirty dishes pile up to the ceiling. She should be cleaning too, and not just when it gets to ridiculous levels of clutter.
I agree but it is also not the responsibility of the OP’s Spouse to be psychic and intuitively know what to do at any given time. Certainly not when she’s sending so many mixed messages and enabling him. Good relationships are about communication and setting reasonable boundaries and consequences. Not in a parent/child way but in an adult if-then manner.
ESP isn’t required for a person to know that they should have a job or at least contribute to the housework. An adult shouldn’t need to be told these things.
For all any of us know, his unemployment may be a recurrent subject of conversation. It has been 10 years; it would be hard to believe it never has been frankly discussed in all this time. We don’t have enough information to say she’s been sending mixed messages to him, but she needs to do something now. That much is clear.
I guess I am reading this as “She’s tried to do something about it for a decade and nothing has worked”.
I don’t think any issue is inherently “worth” divorcing over or not worth divorcing over–a marriage is a serious, but ultimately voluntary, relationship that both people need to feel like they want to be in, overall. On the other hand, no one should ever leave a marriage because of what some third party thinks is a dealbreaker.
I think the OP needs to decide if this is a dealbreaker. She needs to know, in her heart of hearts, if she wants to stay in this marriage if it is going to be exactly like this for the next 30 years. There’s no right or wrong answer to that question, but knowing the answer will guide her in what she should do. And if she’s miserable living like this–if she’d honestly rather live without him than live like this, it’s ok to leave. Hell, it’s better to leave than to spend 30 years filled with simmering resentment.
Let me give an analogy: it became obvious, 2-3 years into dating my now-husband, that he was never, ever going to say “I love you” or anything like it to me. I still don’t really understand why this is a big deal to him, but it is. I spent probably a year wrestling with it, having long boring conversations with him about it, trying to trick him, etc. One day I realized it simply wasn’t going to change, and I had to decide if that was enough to leave over–if it was, I needed to go, and if it wasn’t, I needed to accept it, because I’d given it a try and I couldn’t change it. I decided I liked him as he was more than any hypothetical person without this quirk, and I quit my bitching.
Provided the OP has been trying for a decade or more to reach him on this issue, I think it’s probably time to decide if she wants to live like this or not. And I don’t think there is a wrong choice there–though both options are difficult.
And honestly, if I loved someone to death but we were that far apart on housekeeping (luckily we have a 2 slob marriage), I’d be seriously tempted to suggest staying married but setting up separate households, if it was at all affordable. I’ve seen weirder relationships than that.
Twenty years on and we still have violent arguments over housework. Hiring a cleaner doesn’t work because he can’t get the concept that they clean, not tidy. He tends to the hoarding side (he has a phobia because my MIL once threw his gear out when he wouldn’t tidy, now he checks ALL bags of rubbish before they go out, and if he sees a bag in the bin which he hasn’t put there, he hauls it out to check) so throwing his things out doesn’t work either. Cleaning the kitchen = load the dishwasher. He will quite happily sit and watch TV in the middle of squalor and doesn’t get that I can’t. Yea, he who cares less, wins. He simply doesn’t “see” stuff. So before my BP goes any higher, I will tell you our solution: star chart. Yup, like the ones for kiddies. We have one for our daughter and at his suggestion, I made one for him too. It has things like ‘clear lounge of your belongings before bed’ on it. He gets to decide the reward. Otherwise, we found that making a list worked too. I whiteboarded what needed to be done every day (sweep kitchen floor etc) and would add items (clean out fridge etc) as needed. It means you do all the thinking which shits me to tears, but it’s better than doing all the thinking, all the housework, and being shit to tears.
He’s not going to change until it’s important to him. Invite some of the “Board Members” or equivalent of his volunteer organization to dinner. This first time, help him get the house ready. Then make a monthly habit of inviting people who are important (hopefully to both of you, but specifically to him) over to dinner.
Make it clear that you intend to socialize, and you expect him to take on this role, or find income to provide for a professional cleaner.
This works on several levels. It brings in something he values; it provides a deadline (some people just need one); and it provides natural consequences if he fails. (Consequences other than your displeasure, which clearly he has become inured to.)
I would also try to create a group dynamic of family togetherness and cooperation around cleaning for your son’s sake. I would recommend a day/time each week when everyone pitches in to do certain chores. These can be personal things for you and your son, and broader chores for you husband. If you all pitch in cheerfully together, you can begin to turn the tide of depression + overwhelming task + negative associations with task = deeper depression and avoidance.
And seriously, counseling. For you alone if he won’t go. there is a basic level of integrity which would preclude most people from this level of freeloading. As an example, wen I was pregnant with a slipped disc in my back, I still managed to do the laundry and make dinner each night.
If he honestly wants to make himself useful, but doesn’t know where to start, I’d suggest: www.flylady.org. It can be glurgey and give too much e-mail, but if you just read the daily assignments and deleter the rest, it’s a great way to learn how to keep house.
ETA: Another idea; Music can be a great part of family cleaning time. Assign your son to make a playlist including music that each of you likes. . .
I hate it that I agree with this. I hate it because in my marriage I am the “house spouse” and sometimes I do get lazy about it (ask me about the month’s worth of laundry waiting to be folded) and sometimes my house is pretty bad (not as bad as OP makes hers sound, but bad enough that I’d be embarrassed if anyone saw it). I would dearly love it if my husband chose hiring a cleaning person instead of griping at me if the house got out of control.
But…these are the choices we make. In my opinion (and as a house wife) the sole income-earner has a job already and they are doing it. Thus the house spouse also has a job (of tending to the house) and should do it. The out-of-the-home spouse should not be expected to do anything really, other than the very basic picking up after yourself that most of us were taught pre-kindergarten; but should still have expectations of these things getting done. My own husband has not dusted a piece of furniture, vacuumed a floor or washed a dish in years (although he does do these things if I am ill or for some reason physically cannot, but that is very rare) because he brings home the income which allows me the time to do it at my leisure. That’s just part of the (unspoken) bargain of being a stay at home spouse, IMO.
That said, in the case of the OP where things have gotten out of control, it might not be a bad idea to hire a cleaning person (or crew) as a one-time deal. Then address it as non-confrontationally as possible with the husband. That is if this is not the hill she wants to die on. What I can see (maybe) working is this:
Sit down with husband some time when things are calm and you are not angry and just lay it out. This is so stressful for me because…So what I think we should do is…we can bring in someone to clean things up and do a good deep cleaning, then it will be easier to maintain, but at that point I expect the clean to be maintained. [It’s easy when starting with a clean house if you make a schedule of sorts: between this and this time, wipe down sinks, between these times, vacuum floors, etc. Papers get put here, doo-dads go there…The kitchen gets scrubbed on this day, the bathrooms get scrubbed on this other day, etc. That way you aren’t being overwhelmed with an entire house full of chores and there’s time in the day to do the other things you want to do.]
If husband is agreeable to that, then you are good to go (but don’t get too stressed if things get behind a little, it takes time to develop new habits too) if he is opposed to the housework all together, then it might be a losing battle…
last time i was unemployed and living with other people, my friends covered my third of the bills, but for a long 4 months i was “house bitch”. cooked, cleaned, did laundry, mowed the lawn…
honestly it seemed about right. I really can’t understand anyone who doesn’t work not pulling any weight around the house. That was also a BIG problem between me and my ex-wife, i paid all the bills, worked 2 jobs, and gave here money to run around with her friends… but on my days off i also cooked caught up the laundry and cleaned the house.
It was kid of a relief when she was gone, because i found out i wasn’t the one making the mess in the first place, and all the stress on my wallet left after i figured out how much of the money SHE was blowing.
And another important thing to figure out before you start any course of action, what do you want to accomplish (you can’t get what you want until you know what you want)?
Another perspective on household arrangements; I’m currently the house spouse; I quit a terrible job last year and took time off while we were moving house, and now it’s time for me to go back to work. I will be finding a part-time job, though, because the arrangement between me and my husband is that I look after the household and he works full-time. For the record, I do everything in the house - cooking, cleaning, shopping, paying bills, yardwork - everything. Jim goes to work, and comes home to a hot meal and (relatively) clean house every day - his evenings and weekends are completely his own. I have no intention of working full-time and doing everything in the house, and I see no reason why you should either, freckafree, since your spouse is able-bodied.
Nah what we really need is more bitter women. That’s the ticket.
To the OP: best of luck trying to change someone who’s already half done with the journey of life. Either hold his hand through each chore or get a housekeeper.
I agree with the idea of getting your husband his own workspace - or better still, having him go out to do the work. Does this voluntary office have its own office or clubroom?
A dishwasher for just 3 people is probably more trouble than its worth. Unless you want to stand over your son & husband & make sure they rinse & put the dishes in the dishwasher immediately after use you might as well do them by hand. (I’m speaking from experience here) :rolleyes: If the dishwasher is new enough to be worth something sell it. Otherwise just don’t replace it when it dies.
I’m the so called untidy one in our relationship & I will tell you the 2 things that really irk me!
I clean a shelf/table/whatever & come back to find more mess has been placed on this nice pristine space. If its not going to stay tidy, this does not encourage me to do the work
If I have just tidied something, don’t retidy it. That is a really nasty putdown. Tidy something else - like the clothes that have been sitting on top of your chest of drawers for so long that they need dusting!
Finally, (OK, so I had more than a couple of thoughts!) If you don’t live close enough for Richiam to clean up, how about the 3 of you clean up your clutter, then get a professional cleaner in to do a start off clean. I don’t believe your husband should have to do everything - but if he isn’t working & has his health then you shouldn’t have to go to the expense of hiring a cleaner.
Yep, and an acceptable boundary to set is “I will not live like this. I will move out.”
If this has been going on ten years they both have ingrained patterns to deal with. Moving out will allow each of them to deal with their issues separately. There isn’t any excuse about the dishes not being “his” - they’d all be his. Or about believing that he’s helped a LOT around the house because he moved laundry from the washer to the dryer. Nor will she be tempted to pick up after him or do the dishes. Right now, if he waits long enough, she does it for him. Why should he do more than the minimum?
She’s currently enabling him. Because she works, he doesn’t have to. Because she’ll do the laundry and wash up some dishes, he doesn’t have to. And maybe, on his own, he’d wear dirty clothes and live in a pigsty, but because he’s made those choices doesn’t mean she doesn’t.
As as for “not that bad” she’s describing them as entering a “call CPS level of squalor.” This isn’t “doesn’t pick up his socks off the bathroom floor.” AND it isn’t just her living in these circumstances - she has a teenager as well who probably can’t bring friends over because the house can’t be seen by outsiders.
I think a bunch of rational questions have been raised about the reality of their last 10 years & their relationship. Further speculation by any of us on that topic says a lot more about our prejudices and life experiences than it does about the OP’s situation.