This is more a of a request for opinions, but since it deals with religion I’m posting it here.
I was raised Catholic (the Roman kind), I went to parochial school and a boys high school. I had religion classes every year. I don’t think I ever believed, and I certainly don’t now.
After my first kid was born, however, we joined the parish where I attended grade school and where my parents are still members and some friends’ kids are in school. We go to Mass (“celebrate the Eucharist”, it’s called now) most Sundays. I have been thinking more and more about my assumption that my kids would attend school there as well, which kinds of leads to my real question (finally!):
Since I don’t really believe, and yet still attend Mass and respond appropriately to prayers during the service etc., would I be worse off, in a spiritual sense, if I just stopped going? Since I go, and don’t believe, I’m a hypocrite. If I stop going altogether, I’d be a heathen, right? Where would my “eternal soul” be better off?
Wrong. You wouldn’t be a heathen. You’d be a lapsed Catholic. There’s a difference.
If it helps, I’m a lapsed Catholic myself simply because I figured I’m just pissing off God by taking communion without really believing. So I’m taking a break while I figure out what I really believe. It’s taken me four years so far, and I’m a little closer to what I feel is right.
How can you consider yourself a heathen if you don’t believe in the first place? I think there must be little more to this than what you are letting on.
If not, then the only people that would consider you a heathen are Catholics, should that bother you? Doesn’t bother me, but then I never grew up Catholic.
Azael, you are certainly correct. If I don’t beleive, what’s the problem? It’s difficult for us Catholics to let go sometimes. I guess I’m not as sure as I let on. Although I feel that my doubts run deeper than Neurotik is thinking.
OK, I’ll broaden the question. is someone who attends any church while not believing worse than the non-beliver who does not attend? The believers’ opnions are gonna matter more to me than all you other heathens, BTW.
My girlfriend grew up Catholic and I can tell you firsthand that that religion does some pretty funny things to people. No one hates Catholicism like someone who used to be a Catholic.
I’m a self-confessed heathen but here goes…
I can’t support this with any evidence but I suspect you are hardly alone, I bet alot of people go to Church without there being any real belief motivating it. It just seems like the right thing to do and as long as you go to Church and contribute then you’ve covered at least some of your bases with God. People go for other reasons, not the least of which is the sense of belonging and the access to a social network.
From a Catholic perspective, IMHO anyway, you’re much better off staying at church then leaving because it makes it much more likely that eventually you’ll change your mind and if you do, you’ll be in a much better position to come back. If you leave, and then decide to come back, you’ll have to admit publicly that you were wrong and that might discourage you from ever bothering to return.
In other words, in the Church’s eyes right now, you’re at least trying to believe…maybe not actively, but you keep doing the things believers would do, and the hope is that it’ll start to wear off on you eventually. In fact, I’d say it probably has worn off on you a little, since you at least feel like going to mass once in a while.
It’s kind of like being in an old, loveless relationship, as exciting as that analogy is :-/ You both know the spark is all gone, but your SO would still be happy you went to the trouble of buying flowers on your anniversary. And maybe, just maybe, if you keep being romantic to her, you’ll remember why you fell in love in the first place.
Short story short: I think you’re better off a hypocrite than a heathen, at least as far as your “eternal soul” goes.:rolleyes:
And I think I’m better off about anything then a proofreader…that :rolleyes: was supposed to go where my non-supported :-/ was…I’m not rolling my eyes at the possibility of an eternal soul
My first thought was that you are in no way fooling God. It is true that you may change your mind*, which may or may not be important to you. Then there are those advantages of community and networking. However, I think the best reason to stay is to give your children the same chance to accept or reject that your folks gave you.
You could come up with something that doesn’t agree with the church, but which makes you feel good spiritually. Going to church can be a catalyst for such a change, more than sitting at home.
—OK, I’ll broaden the question. is someone who attends any church while not believing worse than the non-beliver who does not attend?—
You seem a little confused. If you don’t believe, then who are you asking about it being “worse?” Worse how? For who?
I don’t think going to church makes you a hypocrite unless you think you are fooling people into doing things. My father doesn’t believe, is open about it, but is also an active and much liked member of our local Methodist church. Of course, I’m not sure Catholics would be as understanding.
I think a lot depends on what you mean by “I don’t believe”. You could mean
(a) that you are convinced atheist,
(b) that you are open-minded, interested in religious questions and actively seeking answers, but have not accepted the particular answers offered by Roman Catholicism,
(d) that you are completely uninterested in religious questions.
If you are a convinced atheist, it’s hard to see why you would attend church at all. Likewise, if you are completely uninterested I don’t see why you would attend church (or, indeed, why you would start this thread). So I’m guessing that you’re somewhere in the open-minded category.
On that basis I don’t think its hypocritical for you to attend church. You’re open to looking at the answers offered to religious questions, and you’re exposing yourself to the particular answers offered by Roman Catholicism. You’re probably not likely to accept the full package, as it were, offered by Catholicism, but you like the church enough to persist in participating. You see value in their approach to religious questions, even if you don’t share the official position on every, or even most, questions.
I don’t think you’re being hypocritical unless you’re misleading anybody. Strictly speaking, if you don’t share the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist or something fairly close to it, many Catholics would probably say (and certainly the official position is) that you shouldn’t take communion, but I’d say that’s up to you, and your reasons for wanting to take communion.
DaddyTimesTwo, I like the saying, “Church is not a museum for saints; it’s a hospital for sinners.” If you’re showing up, even if it’s only because you don’t want to drop off your kids there then make a second trip back to pick them up, you’re at least still going. The God I worship is pretty forgiving, and he won’t mind you being there (other people’s opinions will vary). My own father was never baptized, but he even sang in my old church’s choir when Mum could talk him into it and never took Communion. As far as I know, no one faulted him for it, and I certainly don’t.
Now, Episcopalians are notoriously more open-minded than Catholics, but I wouldn’t worry about God or other people wondering how devout you are. God already knows, and, as for other people, if they’re judging you by it, perhaps you need to find another church. Then again, I’ve been going to the parish church I grew up in, and they’re pretty much used to me, and I suspect the same applies to you.
You’re not a heathen – you’re a human. You’re also trying to do the right thing which makes you better than most in my book.
If you’re not certain that Catholicism is the way to go, or not certain that there’s a god, why would you make this such an important part of your life (or your childrens’ lives)? You can ponder the questions, read the literature, and live a decent life without confusing the situation further by acting out the charade. And you may end up looking like a phony to your children, regardless of which way they decide to go when they’re older. It just strikes me as disingenuous to go through the motions when you are questioning the very existence of a super-being. You may be doing this to avoid a confrontation with your family (you didn’t mention your wife’s feelings on the subject). If there is a god, I don’t think any of this will have any bearing on your final outcome. Of course, I don’t think god, if he exists, would be a christian anyway.
It’s not really an important part of my life, EK. It’s something we do for 60 odd minutes on Sunday, occasionally Saturday. And I get bent when it runs much more than that.
Basically, I’m lazy. I don’t know what I believe, but I think it’s easier to send the kids where I went school, since I mostly know what they’re gonna get. And trying to teach them what I believe is not possible, since I don’t know what I believe. I get less heat from the family this way, the kids will get a good education, and I get something to complain about. Everybody’s happy.
My wife is much less confused about things than I am, but she is far from serious about her faith. We talk about things but have only recently started discussing the issue of sending our kids to parochial school, mostly for economic reasons. Once/if they start attending school, they will have religion classes every year, and the questions will follow. I should be ready for that, huh?
I guess my underlying worry is that I am raising children without having any firm grasp of my own religious/spiritual convictions. On one hand I think that a lot of religious belief is silly, but, in case I’m wrong, I don’t want to piss anyone off. There are lots of smart people, smarter than me for sure, who are firm in their beliefs and I can’t pretend I know something they don’t, can I?
Anyway, I don’t know what I’m asking any more, but thanks for the responses.
In a couple of weeks, I’ll be at another Mensa Regional Gathering, supposedly a gathering of some of the smartest people in the country. At that gathering, I know for a fact that there will be at least one Episcopalian, a few Wiccans, at least one other Christian, an agnostic, someone who’s at least culturally Jewish, plus, I’m sure a few atheists, and Heaven only knows what other forms of religion. In other words, intelligence is no guarantee of being firm in your beliefs; if anything, IMHO, it may make you less sure if you tend to over-intellectualize (who me?).
I can’t tell you what to believe; all I can tell you is what I believe and why it works. Also, if your children are anything like what I’ve seen of you, they’re more than capable of thinking for themselves. Answer as best you can, refer them to someone else who has answers when you don’t, and trust your instincts. You probably know more than you think you do.
DTT, I know of people who use the parochial school system as a means to better education, and I don’t find anything wrong with that, in itself. I imagine a fence-sitter or an agnostic might be a bit annoyed to have to go through the religious motions that accompany that education, but…what are ya gonna do? You take what you can get. There are non-religious based private schools that can provide quality education. Just another option.
As far as raising kids without a firm grasp on your own beliefs, agnostics and humanists do it all the time! I don’t feel that it’s a parent’s place to present what they perceive to be the master plan as fact (or even as simply the “only” or “right” way to think). Religion and faith are far too personal (as you know) and our world is far too complex to think that a single viewpoint is the only one worth considering.
Sounds like we have a cultural Catholic who just isn’t that certain.
(Real heathens don’t believe in “Eternal Souls” ).
Having never had kids (hold the cheering, folks), I nevertheless offer this:
Explain to the kids that, while most people that know believe in God, Jesus, Mary, there are some who also believe in Saints, and then there are all kinds of differences of beliefs from there.
Additionally, some of the folks don’t believe in Jesus or Mary,
and some even believe that there are no God, whereas others believe in 100’s of Gods - all kinds of thoughts - how 'bout that.
Explain that mommy and you were taught that Catholicism was the true religion, but now you aren’t sure, and maybe they shouldn’t be either, even though the school they will be going to will teach them that there is only one real religion. Don’t argue with the teachers, learn what they have to say, but keep in mind that it ain’t necessarily so…
And no, you shouldn’t be attending, or, if the social pressure demands your prescence, decline Communion. That might be a good starting point for talking to the kids about “not sure about all of it, so I don’t…”
Hidden behind the piles of confusion and vagueness in my questions, I think there was supposed to be a note of humor. The “eternal soul” comment should have been followed by a " ". But I am honestly kind of searching at this point, and trying to be respectful to the Church. It’ll be an intersting few years, huh?
". But I am honestly kind of searching at this point, and trying to be respectful to the Church. It’ll be an intersting few years, huh?