I am a coldhearted bitch with no sympathy for the depressed

The BBQ Pit
1

I have a couple of depressed-or-otherwise-disturbed people in my life right now. These are people that I care about muchly, and I wish them no ill will. I want them to get better.

I just wish they would stop constantly bitching at me!

Case number one: a long-time internet friend. I’d say we’re pretty close to having been friends for five years now. He knows more about me than almost anyone else on the planet, and I care about him deeply. Thing is, the entire time that I’ve known him, he’s been depressed.

It’s the same story. It revolves around girls not wanting nice guys, usually (which is why I get touchy on this subject), although it occaisionally has other reasons. I am asked (subtly) to reassure him, to comfort him, to listen, to say that girls are all stupid. I can’t tell him much about my relationship beyond the fact that it exists, because he gets all sad and changes the subject.

To him, everything sucks. He says he feels empty. That he feels like he’s a bad person. And, you know, I tell him he’s not. Because he freaking isn’t. I tell him that he’s good, and that I’d be lost without him (which has been true at times).

If this were an occaisional thing, it’d be fine. But it’s been CONSTANT almost since the moment I met him, and it happens about half the time that I sign on. At least twice a week most weeks. I’m at my wit’s end, because having the same conversation over and over and over again gets old. I’ve suggested that he get help, but he says that he doesn’t want it. He could get it free through his school, but he prefers that I–and his other internet friends–serve this purpose.

I’m at the point where I can’t be sympathetic. I just want to say “get some fucking help, or quit bitching at me!” I also want to smack him, but I can’t, 'cause he’s too far away. I don’t think it’s fair for him to expect people to do this kind of thing so often.

However…since he’s willing to be there for me when I need it…I can deal. I might get really fucking pissed, but I can deal.

Friend number two, on the other hand, is an entirely different story.

She and I have been friends even longer than I have been with friend number one. Granted, there was a pretty good period of time where we didn’t talk much, but we’re back to being pretty close now, which I like.

Thing is, though–girl’s got issues. She’s had a few bad experiences in the realm of relationships and sex (and let me not even talk about how the number of bad experiences varies from conversation to conversation–that’s an entirely separate issue). As far as I know, none of these experiences progressed to the point of actual intercourse. She refers to them as “rape,” however, and I’m be willing to treat it as something like that (though, knowing people who have been molested and raped…well, I don’t agree, but whatever).

Thing is, the girl refuses to even think about getting help. Refuses to so much as take herbal therapy. She threatens suicide. She makes livejournal entries, then leaves notes in my livejournal telling me to read hers. The other day, she called me at 9 in the morning crying. On my cell phone. Even though it is common fucking knowledge among my friends that I’m not awake that early, and don’t like being woken up. Allegedly, this was because she’s having nightmares about what happened (which was NOT rape).

Personally, I don’t think this is the case. I don’t think that she’s being PTSD or scared or whatever. See, I think she was upset because she doesn’t get to see her boyfriend this weekend. And I–being both in town, potentially sexually manipulatible (I’m bi, so it’s theoretically possible). And she wanted to get my attention.

As a side note, I have a roommate who suffers from borderline personality disorder. I think that my friend also suffers from this.

My roommate isn’t so bad. My roommate isn’t violent, my roommate isn’t injuring her boyfriend, and my roommate IS GETTING HELP! My roommate isn’t having constant pregnancy scares, isn’t mongering for attention, isn’t leaving notes in my livejournal, and isn’t acting like a stubborn three year-old.

My internet friend, I can forgive. He helps me sometimes. This friend, though, doesn’t fucking LISTEN! She gets upset about the stupidest things, and then tries to pull me into it. Which brings me down. And she refuses to do a damned thing about her situation, whether it be as basic as getting on the Pill or CONSISTENTLY using a condom, or as complicated as getting some therapy. If she didn’t want to be on psychoactive drugs, that’d be one thing, but she won’t even go to a therapy session. She’s too scared of what people will think.

Well, hello! You are NOT healthy. You are NOT functioning. You’re constantly “sick”, you’re having nightmares, you’re depressed, you’re seeking attention, you’re considering suicide, and you’ll be lucky if you still have your job in three months. You. Need. Help. And, despite what is apparently the opinion of the entire world, I am not an accredited therapist. I am not qualified to solve your problems. I can’t constantly listen to you, and I’m not on call at all hours of the day.

I have no sympathy right now. She needs to get the fuck over her problem(s). I don’t care what it takes. What she’s doing right now isn’t healthy. And it isn’t healthy for me. And, goddamn it, I have been a pushover far too many times. I comfort people at 2 in the morning via IM or the telephone or occasionally in real life. I’ve helped call the cops on people trying to commit suicide. I’ve driven people to the hospital to keep them from offing themselves. I’ve taken over someone’s life on more than one occaision while they’ve been mentally recovering.
As long as someone’s trying to help themselves, I’m cool with helping them. But this friend is being a leech.

I only help those who help themselves.

GET OVER IT!

2

I have to disagree with your OP title there, Angel of the Lord. Your attitude toward this friend of yours is th’ right one, IMHO. Anything else would lead to the possibility of your own ill-heath emotionally.

The friends I value most are the ones who get me out of my funks, tell me to move on, fly straight, and get over stuff.

Good on you.

3

I like cheese.

4

Angel, having gone through a bit of this myself, here’s what I’ve done. Essentially, I’ve told the often manipulative and not-at-all-fun-to-be-around-when-they’re-in-one-of-their-moods people that, while I am their friend, and I know they have other friends who also love them, their behavior pushes the boundaries of that friendship. A friend’s a friend, and a therapist is a therapist, and it’s just not acceptable to mix up the two. Just casually suggesting professional help won’t work: you need to clearly state that you can’t continue to give your friends what they need from you. Raise some hell: it looks like you’re prepared to.

Also, a little therapy for yourself would probably be a good idea. They can suggest strategies for you to help your friends, as well as keeping you from lapsing into codependancy. Sometimes I find myself launching into my friends’ problems to avoid dealing with my own. That’s just no good for anybody.

Good luck, and don’t take any more of their crap!

5

Have you ever wondered why people like this seem to gravitate in your direction. With friend #1 it isn’t a matter of “girls don’t like nice guys.”. It is more like “girls go for guys that have problems.” He is a guy with problems and he is playing you for all it is worth.

Have you ever told friend #2 to fuck off? Have you told her 1/2 of what you told us bothers you? If not, why not? Hang up on her, avoid her and find new friends. Stick with the roommate who is getting help, but find some other people to just hang with, rather than people you have to solve problems for.

I don’t want to hurt you, but not telling it like it is won’t help you.

6

Angel, who can release you from your self-imposed sense of obligation?

You don’t sound at all like a cold-hearted bitch to me. And I am a depressive with plenty of empathy for the mentally ill.

People with clinical depression aren’t generally very likeable. They are often hostile and undependable. Often they are not to blame and cannot pull themselves out of it. It is not a matter of moving on, flying straight or “getting over it.” (Sorry, Ice Wolf. I strongly disagree.) Expecting that of a depressive is no more reasonable than expecting it of someone with Parkinson’s (a similar illness) – with very different symptoms).

Your male friend may need professional help. It’s hard to say. Sometimes people just get into the habit of complaining and whining. That is not necessarily depression and it may be something that he can pull himself out of. But let him know, if you haven’t already done so, that the whining must stop or he must seek professional help or risk losing your friendship. Be supportive but firm. Then stick to your guns.

I’m not a professional therapist, but I tend to agree with you about your female friend being borderline. Personality disorders are hard to handle even for professionals. Very hard to “cure.”

When people threaten suicide they should be taken seriously. Even if it is just a cry for attention, there is the danger of accidentally hurting or killing themselves. She definitely needs professional care.

But this doesn’t mean that you must sacrifice your life for hers. Decide what you will and will not tolerate. She really sounds very abusive of your friendship and you have every right to draw your boundaries and stick to them. Do whatever it takes to free yourself of the burden that she brings to this so-called “friendship.” She is not a friend to you. Get her off of your phone and out of you journal. Let her know in writing what you will tolerate and what you will not. Then, for your own sake, stick to it.

Please do be honest with her about what you are feeling and thinking. Give her fair warning. But be prepared to terminate the relationship. There are times when there is nothing further that you can do. Do not allow her to lay any guilt trips on you. You have a right to peaceful friendships.

These are all my own opinions and I understand that others may disagree with me. It is very hard for someone who doesn’t have the illness (depression) to imagine what it is like. It is not about being in a funk. It is utter chaos with no reliable perception of reality that can be counted on.

Bless you dear heart for trying so hard.

7

Bless you Angel–I’ve been in a similar place to you, with a friend who was having a very difficult time, and I know that it’s hard to know when to listen and support and step into their lives and when to step back because it’s not healthy helping any more. It can be very difficult, because you do love them, and they do need someone, and you’re there and want to help, but you also can’t carry them on your shoulders all the time. I’m really glad to hear that your roommate is getting help–that’s wonderful, and it sounds like it’s making all the difference in the world. I think you have your head screwed on straight when it comes to your other friend, too. I don’t really have any advice to give, except that I think you are on the right track with thinking that you can’t handle this abuse of the friendship anymore. Remember that you are valuable, too, and you have just as much a right to get your needs met–for privacy or sleep or a life or whatever–as your friend does, and that you do have to take care of yourself or you will go under, too. You seem like a very caring friend–I think the thread title is a joke/tongue in cheek, but just in case, I say it’s not true, also. :slight_smile:

I’ll quote Zoe because I think it’s really important: “You have a right to peaceful friendships.” You do!

May you have wisdom to know what to do in your relationships with these people.

8

Angel - What good / normal / fun events comprise these relationships? It seems to be 100% drama. I realize that your focus for the thread is on the problems, still, this is something to think about. Most of us are willing to be the shoulder to cry on occassionally, however, if this is the norm… something is very wrong.

In my opinion, you should share these thoughts with your friends. Why not discuss some specific boundaries about how much time the two of you will spend focusing on problems. Set aside some “therapy time”, after that, get busy doing something fun and different. This could be the very best way to help your friends. Whatever we focus on gets bigger and bigger. If we focus on the negative, it gets multiplied.

To sum up… add some fun stuff, tell them you are bothered by the drama and negativity, focus on the good stuff.
In the case of clinical depression… I do not think there is really anything you can do except encourage them to get help from the right person.

9

A good friend was once complaining to me about how some people have simply reached their maximum quota for being whiney, depressed and bitchy. It rang perfectly true to me since I know I do exactly that sometimes.

I understand how you care unconditionally. I am the same way, I must have a million little sisters by now(grumble grumble… automatically makes the much harder to date). Like you said, your friends need to GET OVER IT.

Unless you begin to take a soft hardline(subtle, some bluntness, but definitely not confrontational) on the subject of their getting help/getting over it. They’ll simple continue. It’s like drugs, you’re a cheap easy fix for them. do not, I repeat DO NOT feel guility if they begin to slip away. It is their burden. As a friend you volunteer to help carry part of that burden, but in the end it is their burden and you need to remind them of that.

DO NOT FEEL GUILITY.

10

As a depressive myself, Zoe – I was writing that as a tired mind after some exeretion over the last few days, so my apologies if my words seemed off-kilter with the reality of the situation of depression. I meant what I said, but usually in the instance of when life’s little “episodes of crap” happen. When they pile up (as they have quite a few times for me), my depression gets worse. There is benefit in the listening ear (I wouldn’t be around, still alive, maybe, if not for my support network), but there is also the quicksand of co-dependent relationships to avoid. Been there, done that.

The best help I received for my emotional condition was the challenge of new dreams put before me to grab at by very, very good friends.

In the OP’s case, being constantly the listening ear and head-nodder is getting neither of them anywhere, except down.

You “get over” life’s little hiccups, you move on by seeking counselling or other therapy (as suits the situation and person), you fly straight where you don’t let depression rule your life so much your soul and personality wither away into shades of blue. Again, my apologies for the statement used in so trite and dismissing a manner.

11

I think this is the stance that Angel has to take, too. Once in a great while, no problem, that’s what friends are for. But constantly is another matter entirely.

Angel, these people (friend 1 and friend 2, sounds like your roommate is taking care of herself) are being emotional leeches on you. You come across to them as being a kind and nurturing person. By dumping all their negative feelings on you, they get to feel somewhat “better” - they get to convince themselves they’re doing something - while making you feel worse all the time. You get dragged down by their depression, and if you try to tell them to bug off, I bet they get all whiny and try to control you more by saying or doing things to make them sound more desperate and needy, like that phone call.

I know it’s going to be tough, because I’ll bet you anything that they’ll try to make you feel guilty, but you have to push them harder. Friend 1 will probably take less effort. See if you can’t dangle ideas of what good could come from a counselor in front of them. Tell them about the negative, spiraling effects of mulling over these depressive thoughts over and over, how it just drags them down further. Tell them that when that’s all you hear from them, you get depressed to see your friends refusing to take care of themselves and getting more and more ill, when you know you can’t do anything. Ask them if they’d call you for their sole help if they had cancer, and wasted away from the disease, all the while saying they didn’t want to go to a doctor - depression may have external causes, but not always, and it certainly does involve neurochemical processes.

With the second friend, if she gets too bad, you might even want to consider calling her bluff to get the help she needs - if she threatens suicide, call the cops and report it. Give them some of her E-mails or point them at her journal if you have to, if they want supporting evidence.

12

Angel of the Lord, I’m sympathetic to your situation, but I also have to wonder, is it possible that you’re surrounding yourself with these needy types for reasons of your own? After all, you did choose to become close to these people, and I can’t believe their descent into the abyss came as a total shock to you. You must have had at least some idea of what you were getting into when you became friends with these people. What’s causing you to gravitate toward people who need and use you like this? Do you have issues of your own that you’re avoiding? Do you have a need to feel like someone’s savior? Do you like to play the role of “last sane woman in an insane world?” If that’s not you, then I apologize, but I’ve known people I suspect had that complex. Anyway, the cure is just what others have said, tell your friends to shape up or cut the strings.

13

One more vote of sympathy. I admit to nasty problems with depression, but I also do something about it and I get frustrated with people who don’t. Ten years ago, when I was in group therapy after my last hospitalization, I met people who had been in therapy for years and would continue to be so because they were waiting for someone to come along with the answer to all their problems on a silver platter. Would I like someone to do that for me? You betcha! Especially if it comes with a new job, reasonably close to friends who are moving a way, and a nice apartment with an Episcopal church and a library within walking distance, oh, and while I’m asking, for a fellow who’s a cross between a Doper and a Mensan, combing the best qualities of both (oh, and a touch of Pierce Brosnan wouldn’t hurt, either). It’s not going to happen like that, and if I did, I’d be suspicious.

One piece of practical advice. People have hangups about seeking therapy, including me. Ask your friends why they won’t get help, if you like, and feel free to be a bit of probing. When my therapist asked why I didn’t call her after a particularly rough weekend, I first told her it was because I was afraid she’d make me feel better, then, after a bit of probing, that it was because I was afraid I’d be involuntarily hospitalized and ruin my life. That’s pretty unlikely.

You could also do what a friends of mine did. They told the friend who was using their friendship as a substitute for facing her issues that they would break off the friendship. This was with the advice and backing of the therapist all three shared. It kept her issues from becoming their issues and damaging their health.

Good luck, and remember, you’re not a cold-hearted bitch; you just play one on Straight Dope! :ducks and runs:

CJ

14

Maybe depressed, maybe co-dependent, maybe both. But whatever their ailments, you can’t fix your friends and it isn’t your job to do so. They need to know that, just as you do.

You might want to take a look at Melody Beattie’s “Codependent No More” or something similar to help you sort out why you tend to have friends with problems and why you tend to feel trapped by them.

$.02

15

Another person who has suffered from depression here.

There is a difference between “friend” and “doormat” To stand with a friend and help them through depression - that’s a friend. When someone never returns the friendship and only takes, you’ve turned into a doormat. Sounds like with your friends - its all about them. That’s OK, if once in a while its about you. If its never about you and only about them, then the going rate for therapy is something in the neighborhood of $100 an hour.

16

Angel, I think everyone who is friends with a person who is depressed and refuses to seek help will eventually reach the point where they realize they have done all they can. In the end, your friends have to be responsible for their own treatment. This is painful, because you can see that their illness is what’s keeping them from taking the initiative to get the help they need, but at the same time, you can’t bind them hand and foot and drag them to a trained professional. You can try suggesting, nagging and finally begging, but in the end, they have to be the ones to put one foot in front of the other. There are no magic words, there is no set period time after which your urgings will finally sink in, there is no threat you can make that will compell them to do it. It has to come from inside them.

If your friends are just draining you emotionally and dragging you down like a stone around your neck, you have to put an end to it. Nobody is obligated to sacrifice their own happiness and health to help someone who won’t take responsiblity for himself. At some point, you have to tell them that you’re not a professional, you’re not sure you’re saying the right things, you don’t know if you’re helping them or just enabling their illness, and, most importantly, you are not capable of bearing the burden that they are putting on you. They need to find someone who has the knowledge and the professional detatchment necessary to help them deal with their problems.

17

Emotionally needy/difficult people are not going to straighten up and fly right because you want them to. Their emotional issues define them and the trama and drama zone they live in is where they have established their nest.

In real world terms I don’t really believe that people who attract and hold these kinds of people are simply unlucky, or just overly compassionate people who are being put upon. I have seen these relationships in action and there is often a degree of active cultivation of these relationships by the “sympathetic listener” because it feeds some ego or emotional need they have.

Disconnecting from emotionally disturbed or needy people is painful and occasionally dangerous. Gradually being less and less available via caller ID or other strategies is usually the best course of action. Lecturing them to “help themselves” will get you nowhere. You are the one that needs to act.

18

Ice Wolf, you are so right about the challenge of new dreams. There is usually a period in my episodes of really deep depression when I just don’t have much of a functioning brain to set those dreams up. But as the fog starts to lift, that is the first step toward recovery.

And their are things that the depressive can do to help herself or himself.

Thanks for explaining. (I apologize for my own knee-jerk reaction.)

19

As I get older I have become very selective with my time. Not because I’m a bitch (necessarily) but because my free time is much more limited than it used to be. I simply don’t have time to play therapist 24/7.

We all have to prioritize our time and determine what is the most meaningful, fulfilling way to spend it. Personally I have decided to spend what time I do have to nurture the few relationships that are very important to me. The others I have let fall by the wayside.

You need to decide whether or not these people are worth the time and energy that you are devoting to them. Everything comes with a price and it doesn’t sound like you are willing to keep paying the price for little return. If I were you, I’d take Astro’s advice and gradually reduce the amount of time you spend with these people so that you can devote your time doing something more meaningful and (hopefully) reciprocal.

20

No worries, Zoe. If ever I write something that you think needs a challenge, do so, It ain’t so much a knee-jerk, as a “Huh?” I’m cool with it. Particularly when I make th’ error of posting after getting a touch of tummy bug an’ too much hot sun on th’ head! :slight_smile: