IANAL, but I can’t imagine that the man will not be required to pay child support. There would have to be some very unusual circumstances for a court not to order it. I don’t know if a judge would ask the husband about his waiving of community property, but it’s certainly possible. I realize that “fair” is a place where pigs win blue ribbins, but from a practical point of view, if he is going to, financially and emotionally, contribute to his daughters upbringing, then I think he must be treated fairly in this divorce proceeding. It’s as much a question of Foxy40’s moral integrity, as it is a legal one. You made the decisions, good or bad, now it’s time to accept the responsiblility for those decisions. Can you get away w/ cheating him out of his due? Maybe, but can you live w/ the knowledge? That’s a question only you can answer.
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It sounds logical and good. Now go to your lawyer and make sure it’s LEGAL.
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I don’t know but I am writing a list of questions down from the opinions I am getting on this thread and will fax them to the attorney. It makes no sense to go through that if I am only doing it mentally to sooth my conscience. I think I am pretty protected with disability, savings and insurance. In the event anything should happen, our daughter would never have to get government assistance However, you are right, it may not be permitted.
Thank you all and please write anymore thoughts about this.
I don’t have an opinion on your situation, but will share what happened to me - some aspects are familiar.
My first husband left me. Moved in with his girlfriend. I had to file for divorce.
Since he had no assets, he didn’t want his own attorney (no way to pay for one). So I had the only attorney in the deal. This meant that my attorney handled both sides of the paperwork - but was not his attorney - he was MY attorney handling both ends of the paperwork. Even though my ex-husband paid his bills as part of our divorce agreement.
I got all the assets (most of them leveraged to the hilt - I was 22), he took the credit card debt (I took my name off his cards). He paid me alimony (though I had the income - it was from him I got the debt - car loan, mortgage).
I had no problems with any of this. He made his own decisions not to hire an attorney (who certainly would have made us sell the house if only so that he wasn’t on a mortgage for a home he didn’t own - one of my last points of contact with him was him calling to say he couldn’t buy a new house with the bimbo because he was still on our mortgage and didn’t the quit claim deed he signed take care of that? No dumbshit, it didn’t).
Yes, she is technically my attorney and yes, he could get one if he wanted. I am sure I would have to pay for it too. He doesn’t want one. This is pretty cut and dry to him. The marriage didn’t work, he’s not going to have to pay support and is leaving with 20,000 plus money for first/last rent of an apartment. Yippie.
He knows I am a moral and fair person and he will sign whatever I ask him to sign. The moral issue is what I am struggling with.
He is not on the house nor the mortgage. We have no shared debt. No shared anything. Not even a checking account. Even my daughters savings account is in my name only. I never took his name. It is just how we did things. I have heard the number one reason married people fight is about money. That was never an issue with us since we were never joined in that way at all.
That sounds fair and I’ll bet a judge, knowing what you know about his ability/willingness to pay, would agree.
Re: the attraction to his creativity, I can understand that. Thanks for sharing.
Moral and fair people generally don’t try to fuck people over. Just sayin’.
All i can say is: 10 years ago, I was -><- this close be being your soon to be Ex-husband.
She was a trust fund baby who I’m sure thought I was a layabout guy without a steady job and a financial schmuck. She wanted a kid in the worst way and I could have been a means to that end. The reality was: I was new in a new career field and it took awhile to get a permanent job…and at my best level if income, I’m still making an order of magnitude less than she inherited…and yet, I’m pushing six figures. So a great income would most likely never have counted for squat in her mind.
Holy Crap I’m glad that went sideways. I couldn’t have handled the slam to my self worth.
Here’s the deal: You had money going in. You both agreed to that. You upgraded houses together, You lived in this house together whether he paid 1/4, 1/16 or 51% kinda doesn’t matter as it’s a living agreement you went into that he couldn’t have done on his own. But you’re in a marriage of equals while you’re married, therefore, any appreciation in worth should be 50% his too. So he’s entitled to (Total - YourDownPayment)/2 .
Anything less is shiftless and confirms my opinion of ‘moneyed people’. I’m glad my situation never came to fruition as I’ve been infinitely more successful away from her than I ever would have been with her.
You’re asking us our opinions, and obviously, mine is colored from my past, but I ask you this: Deep down, how do you feel about it. Your moral barometer is the only thing you have to live with.
I live in a state that is not a community property state, so if I owned a house when I got married (as I did) and sold it and bought another one it could be in my name and my legal spouse would not necessarily have a share of it.
Now–you say his name is not on the deed, so he wouldn’t have to sign anything if you sold it. But you also say he’s entitled to one-half the equity. That seems like a contradiction.
Since you yourself have no money squeeze and he does, why not be generous and give him half the equity? This is, after all, the father of your child, right? He will always be the father of your child. Give him what he’s entitled to and he will continue to think you’re the most generous woman alive.
(At which point I read the rest of the thread and realize what you’re suggesting is rather well thought out.)
I’ll only add that child support is paid as a percentage from the members that can afford it most, right? If the final agreement is fair, so be it. But there’s also the consideration that if he just jumped ship and crossed the border, you’d be able to raise your child with little impact.
I was always under the assumption that alimony and child support were there for parents that weren’t able to survive otherwise.
I bought my house before I married, my husband isn’t on the deed, and my husband still had to sign to get a home equity line of credit.
My mother used to buy houses, refurbish them, and sell them. She had to have my father sign away his rights to the houses before she could sell them.
So, the name being on the deed isn’t the important thing.
All I can recommend is don’t conceal anything and do everything legally. If you have a rationale for the 20,000, like you mentioned above, then go with that. But don’t try and pull one over. If you honestly feel you can justify it legally than justify it . Make it transparent. You will sleep better at night knowing you did the right thing.
If you actually try to cheat him out of assets that are rightfully his, then you’ll be neither moral nor fair and his trust in you will be totally misplaced. You would essentially be stealing from him and teaching your daughter that lying and cheating is ok.
Foxy40, you might want to take a look at this site:
http://www.divorcenet.com/states/florida/flfaq_01
But am I cheating him? Just because he is “legally” entitled to something doesn’t make it right. Unless we assume the law is always right. BAHAHA.
As a moral person I am trying to decide what is fair. There is no sneakness going on. He has every right to find out anything he wants to and hire his own lawyer. He was told that by my attorney. Ok, so I am not sending up fireworks to alert him. I asked him what he wanted, he told me some household things. I offered him the $20,000. He was thrilled and surprised.
Is it **right ** that I should pay him one half of the equity of the home we both lived in as a family that I paid for completely and totally with no offer of help from him for unexpected expenses? (IE new roof, water heater, a/c) Technically it was paid for with “both” our money because we were married but we did not share money. After “his” bills were paid his money was his to do what he wanted. Computer games, musical instruments, what have you. It wasn’t my concern. However, the utilities were as far as he would ever ever go. Never took out his wallet for anything else to contribute to the home.
Whatever the “law” says is not the point of this thread. It is what is right. If the shoe was on the other foot, I would feel it was wrong to take that money and I would not. Just as I did not touch any of my first husband’s pension when we divorced. I never felt it was mine despite what the “law” said.
I still firmly believe your attorney (who was willing to go along with this with the husband *in the dark * about the fact that she was only looking out for your interests) ought to be standing in front of an ethics committee.
If you sit down with your soon-to-be-ex-husband and fully and completely explain why you’re giving him $20K, and he opts to take the money, then more power to both of you. I’ve nothing to say.
If you don’t fully disclose the legal realities of the situation and offer him the option, then you’re doing a shady thing.
It’s all about the level of disclosure.
You might as well be up front with your soon-to-be-ex. As your divorce involves a minor child of the marriage, a judge is going to give it a thorough once-over to ensure the custody and support arrangements are in the best interests of the minor child of the marriage. This means he or she will question the financial settlements and arrangements if he or she thinks they’re a little odd. It’s possible your husband will come through the proceedings without being apprised of his rights to the equity - but I’m not sure I’d bet on it.
Even in totally amicable divorces, in most jurisdictions (I am not your lawyer, I am not licensed in your jurisdiction, this is not the droid you’re looking for, yadda yadda yadda), the judge is required (or strongly encouraged) to review the details if a minor child of the marriage is involved and given very, very broad discretion in altering even agreed-on divorce arrangements if he or she thinks it might be in the best interests of that child. Even if you’re totally upfront with your former spouse, there are several classic earmarks of fraud around this situation (both using the same attorney - retained by the spouse with the most to loose, spouse without attorney getting less than they’re entitled to, etc) that may well cause the judge to question.
Save yourself the headache (and the moral qualms). Be upfront with your ex about where you came up with the 20K number.
Interesting. Thank you. We have already done financial disclosure. He knows what I have and where. He knows the value of the home. I am not hiding money in mattresses or anything. We aren’t talking about a great deal of wealth or assets. Only the house.
Your 30k down payment comes off the top, not out of his half of the equity. So his share of the house is something like:
(200k - 30k) / 2 = 85k
Not as you calculated:
(200k / 2) - 30k = 70k
So even by your above logic (which I don’t endorse), you owe him significantly more than 20k.
Ok, I’ll weigh in with an opinion.
He doesn’t expect much. He signed a pre-nup. He didn’t contribute finanically to equity in the house (but picked up his end of the household expenses). He seems fairly anxious to let it all go without any stress.
Without speaking to the legal piece, I think your offer of $20k is fair - if I were looking at it, he’s got years of a pretty good lifestyle out of you, with no expectation that it would continue. He is capable of taking care of himself.
I think you are. Whatever your moral views on this, he is legally entitled to half of the equity in your house and you know it. Now, if he chooses on his own to waive his right to that money, then that is different. You chose not to take half of your former husband’s pension, but that was your choice, and the choice wasn’t made out of ignorance or deception.
Your husband is also legally and morally obligated to provide for your daughter. If the two of you decide to arrange for you to keep the equity in the house in lieu of monthly child support, then I think that would be fair – so long as the arrangement is made legally and so long as your husband is fully aware of his rights and is able to make an informed decision about all this.
You asked for opinions and this is mine – that it is dishonest for you to withhold from your husband the knowledge that he is legally entitled to that equity.
Hmmm. $200,000-$20,000=$180,000.
Dunno bout you, but that’s a lot of money to me and most everyone I know.
Seems to me, unless he has a low IQ, he could figure this out-if you have fully disclosed this stuff to him.
Essentially, you are saying that you’re fine with your daughter having a poor, “dead beat” father-who you helped to that position. Nice.