Divorce - what is a fair property settlement?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I know enough to consult with experts should push ever come to shove, but was hoping for some thoughts as to what folks considered fair in terms of divorce settlements.

Say 20+ years of marriage. Both spouses are licensed professionals, but one spouse has stayed home the last 17 years while the other was the primary income earner. While the underemployed spouse could get fulltime work, it is unlikely they will ever approach the other’s income.

Soon to be 3 kids in college. Currently enough funds are saved to pretty much cover 4 years at public college for all three.

House paid for and other assets sufficient to presently be comfortable, tho not rich.

It seems to me that all existing assets, investments, etc. ought to be split pretty much 50/50, but how do you divide such things as pensions, retirement investment, etc.?

Also, I’m not sure the higher income earner should indefinitely be giving 1/2 of their paycheck to the other - especially if the other is not employed fulltime. Seems more reasonable that if both are employed fulltime they exchange 1/2 of their respective checks. And even so, it seems there ought to be a time limit after which they truly are financially independent from each other.

And what if one spouse’s parents died, and money they were left was comingled and spent, but the other spouse still has both of their parents - both of whom have considerable assets at present. Ought that play any role in the settlement?

Like I said, I’m not looking for legal or investment advice. But any thoughts, experiences would be helpful.

2

If it makes both parties homicidal, you’ve hit it.

3

I heard a judge give a talk once about some of these negotiation approaches. It was pretty interesting. Something to think about Divorce--Ten Ways to Divide Property Without a Fight

Having raised kids, you’re probably familiar with this one “One spouse divides, the other chooses: One spouse divides all the marital property into two parts and the other spouse gets the choice of parts.”

This is the one I found most interesting “Choose items alternately: The spouses take turns selecting items from a list of all the marital property, without regard for the value of items selected.”

4

Well first, sorry to hear about this. But based on some of your past threads it doesn’t surprise me either.

I was married for 20+ years, divorced several years ago and now am happily remarried. In my case my ex hadn’t worked for the last 10 years or so and even if she did she would have made significantly less then I do.

Ours was essentially split 50/50. But she got the equity in the house equal to what my retirement was at that time and we split the remaining equity 50/50. i also paid (and still pay) a fair amount of alimony. In my case there is some mental issues (my ex is bi-polar) and thus the amount is probably more then I likely would have to pay if we had went to court. But obviously this woman meant something to me at some point or I wouldn’t have married her, and I do feel an obligation there. YMMV as people seem to be very vindictive in general when they get divorced, but I am here to say that it doesn’t have to be. Keep in mind that this is the mother of your children and you felt something for this person at some point.

But we negotiated first and came up with what we thought was equitable and then we saw a lawyer and he basically just filed the paper work. However I know several people who spent all of their money on legal fees. I guess you and your wife have to make the determination if that is the right thing to do. With my ex–she was frugal enough to realize that was not a good idea, and worked with me to find a reasonable solution.

I will say based on the other folks I know who have gotten divorced that I seem to be the exception. My divorce was amiable and in fact I still get along with my ex–and we both are still happy with the financial arrangements we made. YMMV of course :slight_smile: Good luck.

oh yea–the second part of your question about inheritance. Wow–don’t have any answers on that. Never came into play in my divorce.

5

For better or worse, most of these things are figured out by simple formulas these days. A lawyer/mediator should be able to show those to you.

6

Heading home for the day.
Will check in tomorrow (if I don’t get stabbed in my sleep!) :wink:

7

Pensions and retirement investments should be divided 50/50 as of the date of filing, IMO.

You mean during the marriage? Usually the one who doesn’t work outside the home provides “in-kind” services which are hard to put a dollar figure on.

I’m not sure I understood this. You mean during the marriage? Or after divorce?

That falls under the category of “life happens”. A person would appear petty to go back and ask for the ‘comingled’ part of the inheritance.

Advice? Both times I divorced, I walked out with my personal belongings, and the kids’ clothes and furnishings. Nothing co-owned - no furniture, appliances, vehicles. That’s because I wanted a “clean” break - I’m kind of weird like that.

My advice to you is to try to find that compromise which enables you to live with your conscience. I agree with a couple of points **Hakuna Matata ** made - this is a person whom you once cared very deeply about, try not to be vindictive.

8

I’m sorry to hear about your troubles, and I am the farthest thing in the world from an expert, but…

I agree that existing assets acquired during the marriage should be divided 50/50, with exceptions made for assets that are more “meaningful” to one or the other. It may be more important for you to have more of your pension, while she’d prefer a larger share of the equity in the house, for instance.

I don’t disagree with you, but I do think that this is dependent on a number of things, one of the most important being the ages of the people involved. A woman who is 45 or older and just entering the workforce after a nearly 20 year absence is largely… what’s the word I’m looking for here? Oh yeah… fucked. She’s unlikely to be making loads of money, and her retirement plan, assuming her job offers such a thing, is starting up about 20 years late. Now I’m not saying that’s your fault, and I’m not saying she shouldn’t be doing everything she can to support herself, but assuming that the decision for her to stay home is one you made jointly, you’re jointly responsible for mitigating the disadvantage it puts her at. Probably not forever, and certainly not unconditionally, but it should be taken into consideration.

Unless the parents have made a commitment of financial support now, probably not. Life’s like that. Let it go. But if one of you does come into a large inheritance at some point, it’s an excellent time to renegotiate any standing agreements.

I wish you and your wife luck and patience and everything else you’ll need to get through this. And I’d like to say to **Hakuna Matata ** that more people should handle divorce the way you and your spouse did. They should try to remember that they used to love this person, and that (if they have children) they’re never going to be truly free of them, so it’s worth keeping it civil. And when all else fails, they should ask themselves “What would a reasonable adult do in this situation?”

9

Yeah, I’m hoping things go amicably - if they go. Right now she’s watching a show with our son, who goes to college in 2 days. I plan in bringing up the topic - tho not sure whether to do so tonight or wait til the kid is gone. I’m getting tired of exchanging such nastiness and then pretending it wasn’t said/done, tho.

In response to 90Wt, I was talking about after divorce. I don’t begrudge any asset/income distribution to date. I’m aware her “services” were well worth my financial contribution. But I’m just trying to begin thinking about what my future will hold. What my standard of living will be. If we divorce, I would like at some point to not keep paying support. I guess that would probably have to figure into the asset distribution.

And re: any future inheritance, I don’t want to be petty, but her Ps are quite wealthy - tho of course there is no guarantee they will leave any of it to her. But if I am giving her 1/2 of my checks, it would tick me off to have to continue doing so if all of a sudden her net worth increased by hundreds of thousands.

Also WRT support, surely I can’t be held a slave to my current job, can I? If I wanted to be a dick, couldn’t I quit my current well-paying job, and give her 1/2 of whatever I earn flipping burgers?

Not serious in the last, of course. And - like I said, I don’t want to be vindictive or petty. But nor do I want to unnecessarily commit myself to relative poverty for the rest of my life. I’m well aware that whatever happens, each of us will be living in economically reduced circumstances compared to what we currently enjoy.

My job pays well - but I hate it. Even tho she may be - what is the word? Oh yeah … fucked, shouldn’t she have to work full time at a job, even if it pays poorly and she hates it. Then she gives me 1/2 of her check, and I give her 1/2 of mine. Doesn’t seem right that I should have to work fulltime and give her 1/2 my income to not work fulltime.

And even so - if we split all present assets, including pension and other investments right down the middle, shouldn’t there be some time in the future - 2, 10, 15, 20 years from now - that we are entirely free of each other?

Oh well. Gotta talk to her first of all. Then to a lawyer. But as I’ve said, if this happens, I’d hope it goes as amicably as possible. I guess I’d give up a good share of whatever we have, in exchange for becoming independant sooner rather than later.

10

Didn’t mean to sound flip before–I thought I remembered that you were a lawyer, and thought you were asking generally, not personally.

Having been through it once, I can tell you that you should be prepared to surrender MUCH more than you think is reasonable, and then when you’ve absorbed that hit, prepare for another hit, and then another. The crap you will hear in terms of what your ex-to-be feels is only a reasonable modicum of what she’s got coming to her, and how she’ll (and your poor kids’ll) suffer if she gets even a nickel less may just boggle your mind. It certainly scrambled mine sixteen years ago this week, and does all over again every time I bring the absurd terms to mind again.

Succinctly put, my ex- asked for a financial deal in which I would, somehow, support myself --in New York City, mind you–on $600 per month. Total–rent, food, clothing. I thought that was so obviously untenable that I could just appeal to any judge’s common sense and argue that sum was insufficient to support life for a housefly, but alas! That was not the case. That was the starting point for negotiations to begin. (Hrer argument proceeded to “Okay, if you can’t live on that, get another job. And if two aren’t sufficent, then work three full-time jobs. I don’t care where you get your money, so long as I get what I need from you.”) At the first sign of a belligerent, unreasonable attitude, I would hire the hungriest, most unscrupulous shark I could find, and pay him his regular fee. It will be worth it in the end–if you sense any unreasonable arguments from the other side.

11

I got spousal support for five years after my divorce…he paid an extra year out of kindness, because the first two years he was so behind in making any payments, spousal or child support, that I fell deeply in debt. But our kids were only 11 and 13 when we divorced, so I wasn’t quite as …what’s the word? Fucked? in the job market as I would have been ten years farther down the road. I get half of his military retirement pay…which is zero.

12

Wow. I am surprised that someone would ask a legal question of such complexity on a message board, and more surprised that others would presume to actually answer it. Seems like you may need an attorney.

13

Sorry, Dinsdale. :frowning:

It’s been 15 years since they divorced and my parents still can’t agree on that - my Dad maintains it’s a specific number, my Mom says it’s 17% of his income. And then there’s the arrearage he owes, from his periods of unemployment. Or something.

His wages are garnished, and if he’s late (because he’s been laid off, as has happened a dozen times in as many years) then he’s contacted by the same people who go after “Deadbeat Dads”. He finds that humiliating.

Children. Weddings. Grandchildren.
Nope, you’ll never be entirely free from each other.

But yes, my Dad’s alimony is slated to end when she turns 65 next year.
OTOH, though, honestly - if my parents hadn’t divorced, hadn’t openly revealed all the ugliness they’d tried to gloss over, then I don’t know where I’d be.
It was painful and awful, but we’re all better off for it.

I just wish my parents had learned to fight small fights, instead of saving it all up for The Big One. And they were HS debate teammates, too.

14

Thanks. I suppose it’s because I don’t hear about alimony much these days - it doesn’t occur to me that people still recieve it.

It’s also hard for me to visualize some of these things - like demanding certain percentage of the other ex’s salary - so my advice is probably worthless. I mean, I can understand an person who was not educated, stayed out of the workforce tending home & hearth, etc. being not-so-employable at age 45 or so, and needing a ‘leg up’ so to speak - but I woudn’t WANT to be supported by an ex-spouse, especially if I had a college degree and could support myself. I’d want no part of being beholden to them, if that makes sense.

I wonder how your wife would look at going to work. Has she thought about having a career, after all these years? You know, my sister just graduated law school and passed the bar - she also just turned 50.

Seems like I remember a GQ thread which covered this. IIRC, every divorce settlment is different, so there is no hard-and-fast rule here.

See what I mean? I don’t get this attitude, I really don’t. Sheesh.

15

Dinsdale. I was a domestic lawyer in my past life (caveat: I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice, ymmv, I am probably not licensed to practice in your state anyway and do not know that state’s specific laws; etc. etc.) and it seems you have some slightly off-kilter ideas about the process. I don’t know what state you live in, and you should know that every state has different laws about these things, so your best bet is to consult a domestic lawyer in your area. You sound angry and from what you describe, your wife is, too. Count on her getting a lawyer. Count on paying at least some portion, if not all, of her legal fees.

Some of the things you mention - inheritance is non-marital property in most states, unless you co-mingle it, which you apparently have done, which transmutes it into marital property. That ship has sailed for you. There’s no undoing that. Your wife has no inheritance to date, and the possibility of having one *may *be considered in negotiations, but don’t count on it holding a lot of promise for you. Her parents may live into their 100s or may not leave her anything, or much, from the estate. You can certainly quit your job and flip burgers but the court will in all likelihood impute your higher income to you, as it is the income you are capable of making and it would look like you are being intentionally underemployed to screw the system/your wife. Yes, your wife will also have income imputed to her, as if she had a full time job for which she is currently qualified. Lifetime alimony is still awarded. The amount and duration of alimony will be determined based on her education, age, health, fault in the breakup of the marriage, and a number of other factors, not just your income. But generally, a man’s economic lifestyle improves after divorce and a woman’s decreases exponentially. Yes, even in the 21st Century.

Further, equitable asset distribution and alimony are two different things and the distribution of asset are but one factor of many that will be considered when alimony is determined. But a 50/50 division is the default unless there are other circumstances.

I have seen so many clients who came to me because they felt they didn’t need any lawyers messing things up, then royally messed it up themselves and now they wanted me to undo it. Once the equitable division agreement is approved by the court, it cannot be modified. Alimony *can *be modified later provided there is a material change in circumstance that was NOT foreseeable at the time of the agreement. There is a lot more involved in the divorce process than you seem to think.

Bottom line: considering that you have considerable assets and income, disparate employment histories and probably wildly divergent expectations, you both need to see your own lawyers.

16

I don’t think he is asking a legal question, he is asking an ethical one–he wants to know what he ought to do, not what he has to do–with the intention of fulfilling those ethical obligations even if they exceed his legal obligations. This is exactly the kind of question this board is good for, as you get a wide variety of well-thought out ethical positions.

As far as the inheritance goes, one suggestion would be for her to agree to put any inheritance she receives into a trust for the kids, so that just as you both spent your parent’s inheritance for the good of the family, her parent’s legacy also contributes to the family as a whole.

Dinsdale, if you haven’t talked to her already, I think you need to make sure you know if this is a “Either we make major changes or we end this because I can’t live like this” conversation or a “I don’t want to be married anymore” conversation. Those are completely different, and if you are switching between modes (as you are here), you’ll hurt her a lot worse, she will be a lot more angry, and this whole thing will be off on the wrong foot.

17

Is this really what you meant to say? The rest of your post seems to suggest the opposite.

18

Dinsdale, at this point, you really need to see a divorce attorney who can tell you what rights and obligations you will have. From previous threads, it seems that your wife is pretty controlling and can be vindictive. You need to find out what the law says in your state and figure it from there.

I also think you should do it before you and her have the talk.

19

Aww man! I’m sorry to hear this. I don’t have any frame of reference as my wife and I do not have children yet…and are in fairly good standing with one another. However, from reading your posts and catching your vibes through the last couple years, I can’t say I am surprised. If you do go through with it I wish you luck with your future endeavors whatever they may be.

20

Of course you should see an attorney.

But if you’re talking about what SEEMS to be a fair property settlement, I’d say a 50/50 split is fair. You created a family together. How else could you possibly split it?

Forget about the inheritances. You spent yours on your family, including your kids. That was your decision. What she does with her money, including the money her parents leave her, will be none of your business. You can’t be rid of her except where it benefits you, as that certainly smacks of unfairness. Either you want to be divorced from her or you don’t. And if you do, then I’d suggest that you learn to accept that you have no right to dictate how she’ll live her life, or spends her money, after the papers are signed.