Before this takes off, I’d like to promise up front that I will be sparing The Dope the drama of my personal shit this time around. Suffice it to say that I have finally decided in my own mind that I really need to detach myself from my bride and I want to know what that means.
There are kids: ages 7, 9 & 11. We are in agreement about how to raise them and what values we would like them to have.
There is a house. We got it this time last year. Huge down payment from her share of her dad’s estate. I don’t want the house or any of the equity, she can have it. For what it’s worth, I voiced serious reservations about this move before we went house shopping, but she assured me that we would be able to work out our differences in no time once we started building a home of our own.
There are 2 cars. She hates mine, I hate hers. The newest & priciest is hers: battered 95 Pathfinder. I don’t want any part of it.
There is a 401k. Mine. sigh
There is a ton of term life insurance on both of us.
In short, we’re both reasonably good people who put our kids first but who are miserable together. We spent a few months seperated a couple years ago. We have not gotten along so well since we were in high school. I read this to mean that we would only both benefit from a break up, making us both better parents.
My worry? Money I don’t care about. It’s the kids. I’ve heard that divorce can fuck 'em right up, but I wonder if that is necessarily so if Mom & Dad get along fine but just don’t cohabitate, and keep the raising of the kids foremost in their endeavors.
So knowing what you know, what am I not considering? I don’t plan on fighting her at any turn, there is really nothing that I want except unlimited access to the kids for both of us, and I don’t see her wanting anything restrictive there either.
I don’t have any fantastic first hand advice to give (having never even been married or having kids). I can only tell you a little bit about a friend of mine. (Who I just got back from seeing, incidentally.) He and his girlfriend never even got married, but they were cohabitating for a while - and they, too, were miserable. According to my buddy, she even got violent with him, in front of their daughter. The (now ex) gf moved out, and was only somewhat stable at first. She seems to be getting better. The daughter has gone from spending almost all of the time with her dad to now something getting closer to equal time with both parents. (Not quite, but that’s a longer story.)
Throughout all of this, the daughter has always been one of the damn cutest and coolest kids I have ever seen. (Now, I may be partial, seeing as how I’m “Uncle Geek”, so take that for what it’s worth.) From what I can tell, the daughter is a very well adjusted and smart 4 y/o.
As a teacher, I can tell you that I honestly have no idea whether the large majority of kids come from a divorced family or not until I find out through paperwork or some such. I very rarely have ever heard of the divorce being a major issue, and, it’s usually very apparent that both parents aren’t as interested in their kids as they are in shoving blame on the other.
In short, if you two make the kids a priority, they will be as fine as they would be if you and their mother were living together - better if the distance helps you two keep sane.
You don’t need me to tell you that separate households will make things more challenging in terms of resource and schedule management, but it can be done.
When my parents divorced, my Dad and my Aunt thought that taking her to a psychiatrist just to give her somebody to talk about everything with, would help. I don’t know to what degree it did, but I would assume that having a third party to talk with during a weird time for a kid helped better than nothing at all. I think people tend to underestimate the power of a kid’s comprehension in the matter. It’s not like 50 years ago where divorces were uncommon; I remember that growing up most of my friends’ parents were divorced. Hell, I knew that mine would be someday even before either of them did. But again, I’m sure that talking to them, using conversations appropriate to their age, and stressing that the divorce wasn’t the kids’ fault by any means, would help.
Get a divorce lawyer. Most people will have one, two divorces in their lives. Divorce lawyers deal with divorce on a daily basis, and I assume are much, much better at it. Even if you think your split will be amicable and both parties will agree to any informal agreement, you have kids and there will need to be custody and child support issues addressed. And don’t walk away from the house, either. You’re going to need a place to live that will allow you and your three kids to live there for at least weekends at a time (possibly longer) - some settlement from the house can help you get a better place that will allow you to do that.
Best of luck to you, Inigo. It sounds like living apart is the best thing for all involved here.
As far as your kids go, as someone who is 22 and remembers quite well what happened when he was ten and his parents got divorced I’ll give some advice:
-Don’t badmouth the other parent in front of your kids
Both of my parents did this all the time for years and continue to do so and it really affected me as a child.
-Don’t bitch constantly about your financial situation to your kids
My mom did this to me for well over a decade and as I child I was constantly worried we were on the verge of losing our house. My parents got divorced in 1995 and my mom just sold our old house earlier this year. Thanks mom for making me think we would be homeless for over a decade. :rolleyes:
I was your eldest’s age when my parents divorced. My parents fought a lot when they were together and the separation, while hard, was actually a relief for the most part.
Our parents kept us out of their problems completely. I’m 38 now and still don’t have (and don’t want really) all the details. From the day they separated my Mother never said a bad word about my Father to or in front of us. Same for my Father. They may have wanted to kill each other for all I know, but all we ever heard was “Did you remember to get your Father his birthday gift?” and stuff like that.
As long as you don’t try to put them in the middle or talk crap about each other to them (or in front of them to other people) I’m sure they will be fine. All three of them are old enough to understand that sometimes people just don’t get along and that everyone will be happier in the end.
I’ll say this is some of the most important advice you’ll see here. Get a lawyer, no matter how amicable you think things are. It’ll cost you a little bit of money, but it’s well worth it.
From my perspective, I had no problems with my parents divorcing. And looking at my family nowadays–my 10-year old stepdaughter seems to have no problems with her mom and dad getting a divorce (I think she was 4 at the time). She’s a bit needy, I think, when it comes to her bio father, but she’s that way because he didn’t pay enough attention to her when she was little, not because of the divorce.
We definitely make it a policy not to badmouth the bio father in front of her, and FWIW, he is now a much better father than he used to be (he actually sees her much more now than he did before I came along and moved her and her mother away from him).
The only thing I think you’re not taking seriously enough is your “I don’t plan on fighting her at any turn, there is really nothing that I want except unlimited access to the kids for both of us” remark. You may wind up having to fight her on a few issues, and I don’t think you should sacrifice things you may otherwise be entitled to just because she wants them. You, as well as she, need to be able to provide for your kids. Again, get a lawyer!
The #1 topic that causes fights among married people: money
The #1 topic that causes fights among divorced parents: the kids
My free advice: DON’T say, “I don’t want any of the equity in the house.” By law, you may have to part with half of your 401k, something which you may begin to resent when you’re not feeling so resigned. Report your assets honestly and allow the law of the land to decide how to split up the major assets. Then try not to be a jerk when it comes to the wagon wheel coffee table because, in the long run, that’s minor, easily replaceable, stuff.
If at all possible, try to determine a mutually agreeable custody agreement with your wife, keeping in your heart and mind that your children need stability. Also keep in mind that children need both parents, including their father.
I think the best plan is to have a very specific custody agreement which spells out times and dates where custody must change hands, including holidays and vacations, and THEN if you’re both able to be reasonable and flexible you can modify it by mutual agreement. But don’t start with a loose schedule and hope that you’ll act maturely and reasonably.
I’e studied psychology, my parents are divorced, and I’ve read a IMHO good book about divorce and kids. So that’s my credentials.
I’ll echo what most people alredy have said. Studies (as quoted in my book, about divorce in Germany, by author Cheryl Benard) show that there really isn’t any “golden” solution, when it comes to the sharing of custody and visiting rights. The only, only factor that correlates with the well being of the kids, is how fairly both spouses feel the financial and other duties are shared. A spouse who feels she is treated fairly and that the husband makes good on his promises, (or vice versa) is more likely to be a relaxed, content, good mom who feels (s)he can move on. Or dad. It is as simple as that.
And that, of course, isn’t simple at all. If the reason for divorce was the feeling of one spouse that (s)he was unfairly treated, the chances of that situation actually improving with divorce is about as great as a snowballs chance in Hell. However, I don’t get the impression that is the case with you, Inigo. You might actually be not such a bad candidate for divorce.
If you do, my advice is to make sure both parties (both you and your wife) will end up feeling treated fairly. The only judge of what is fair are you both; take the time to figure out compromises that let you both have what you want. Then and only then you both will get what you really want: peace, quiet, happy children, a non complaining ex you can make deals with, and to stop making each other miserable. Whenever you both feel the urge to fight over anything, take a deep breath and remind yourself of how much *winning *will actually *cost *you.
This is true. My parents’ divorce was the best thing that could have happened as far as my home life and my relationship with each of them was concerned.
I just wish they’d done it sooner.
But like everyone else is saying: do not bad mouth your spouse in front of the kids, and DON’T complain about the division of finances/property in front of them either.
I so disagree with this. I would be surprised if we all don’t know someone that ended up paying lawyers thousands and thousands of dollars to fight over* things * and ending up totally ruining any chance of a nice relationship between the parents.
You seem to have some reasonable expectations. Maybe she will sign away your 401K for the house equity if any. There may not be any if her money went as the downpayment. (I have heard that inheritences are usually not maritial property but IANAL).
As far as “stuff” give it all to her. Who cares? You can make more money and buy more stuff but what you can’t rebuild is the relationship with your children’s mother after fighting over a 401K.
I have been told I am an idiot by family, friends and even members here for giving my husband more than he would be legally entitled to but he is grateful, and we have a terrific relationship with a 50/50 custody agreement with no limitations or “primary custody”. NO PERSON has the right to limit the relationship between a child and his parent. I firmly believe that strict visitation days, time to call, holidays apart is very sad and unnecessary IF the parents can get along. Yes my husband and I must communicate every day. Yes sometimes it is annoying but the point is our daughter is happy and well adjusted. She doesn’t miss either of us because she has us whenever she wants.
Keep the big picture in mind. The well being of your kids. If you two can still love each other even if you’re not “in love” you can make their lives as unchanged as possible.
I, too, have no personal experience, but have watched/helped two of my brothers survive their divorces (two each).
The experts say “amicable” doesn’t necessarily mean friendly; there will be heartache and heartbreak, and the kids will suffer most of it, and you can’t spare them that. But they’re not made of gossamer and glass. They’ll survive it, probably grow up to be great kids who will love both of their parents and will be grateful to you and your soon-to-be-ex for not playing nasty mind games with them and each other.
They will, of course, blame themselves because that’s what kids do. They seem to think everything that happens around them is directly caused by them and centered on them. You can’t change it, just reassure them, like the clueless adult you are, that it’s not their fault and someday they’ll realize it on their own and be thankful you tried to tell them that.
Well, if you’re talking thousands and thousands, I’d say skip the lawyer. My lawyer cost me about a grand, and right before I decided to retain him, my wife started getting nasty (up 'til then it had been ‘amicable’). I didn’t expect him to handle ‘in the weeds’ things, but to make sure I didn’t get screwed and to handle all the paperwork. He did everything I hoped, and my ex and I are still on good terms to this day (granted, we had no kids to deal with).
If you want to maintain a close relationship with your kids, don’t leave town. I’ve known many divorced fathers who wound up moving away from their kids because of new job or a new spouse. Then, naturally, their kids drift away from them. Children don’t just need their dads over the summer or on holidays; they need them around all the time. So my advice would be for you and your wife to commit to remaining in the same town as each other until the youngest graduates high school.
Thanks for the input so far (and for keeping the “noise” in my other wonky threads). My kids and my sense of duty are a couple of the precious few things I take very seriously. My marriage used to be one of them, but I’ve lost so much respect for my wife over the last 3 years that I can’t even keep myself from flaming her here from time to time. And that’s just not the high road.
I do plan on getting a lawyer, but only for specific advice and to make sure all the docs are completed correctly (I am an insurance guy after all). Equity in the house is approaching 100k, my 401k is close to $20k. I pretty much have her by the titties if she wants to get into dividing assets I think. And as I’ve said, we have nothing else of any real value (but no debts apart from the mortgage!).
My guts tell me if we had divorced a few years ago when things were really bad, then it would have gotten ugly. Now we’re both just tired and not into each other. My family health history and my current blood profile (Inigo blood = wax) pretty much assures me that my retirement fund is a non-issue, and with those same cards comes a desire for some peace and control over my life. In my mind, peace and control can be had as long as I have a roof over my head and some dirt to till. Anything else is extra and I mean it when I say she’s welcome to it. Needing so little I don’t see any way I can get raped in a settlement no matter how evil she gets.
We’re still good friends. But how many of your good friends would you want to live with? Oh, and I plan on moving no more than a mile or two. I’m not leaving them, I see it more as the family making a local move and their mom just isn’t coming with.
My parents got divorced back in the bad old days when there seemed to be very little knowledge of how to make it work. Never badmouthing the other parent and never blaming the divorce for bad financial outcomes seem like two things that really make a difference.
If you want expertise without starting an adversarial process, you might try a divorce mediator (many of whom are attorneys) rather than each getting a lawyer. The mediator can be used with or instead of individual lawyers. The idea is to take advantage of someone who is experienced with the process without turning it into a legal fight.
Well it’s a great idea in theory but it didn’t work well for me in practice. I got raped by going this route, and lost pretty much everything. At the end of the day, I’m ok with it but it’s also been 12 years since it happened and I actively CHOSE to let go of the resentment and feelings of loss and betrayal.
Inigo, my ex and I (despite the financial raping) are good friends and STILL co-parent our two adult sons as they need/want it. So yeah, you can do it.
Lessons learned for me: I really ought to have gotten a lawyer so I had some representation. Instead I relied on his good Christian values, which was a big financial mistake.
On the plus side, he did remarry almost immediately and his wife has been a huge positive reason he and I are friends today. She flat out would not allow him to go down the bitter trail, and my counselor helped me with my own issues of anger.
If not, then get a lawyer, and instruct him/her, “GO HARD!”
An amicable divorce is better, but YOU be in charge. Be friendly, but don’t trust her. Sorry, but I learned the hard way. Whatever you do, stay in control legally, even if it costsyou. That’s the reality.