I, apparently, should give up on this college thing and just settle down.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
[
Kalhoun, as I said upthread, my dad went to UCLA for a degree in Econ, graduating in the early 1970s. I regularly joke with him that he went to UCLA when the only requirement was that you were white and could pay the tuition :p. It’s funny that he is so critical of me though, as he’s fairly progressive on most of his social and political stances. I just think it fundamentally messes with his head when- after all these years where he’s been the smartest and most well off- his daughter is looking to get an even greater education.

My dad’s also an accountant. He’s a practical individual, so I think the thought of someone running off to spend 12 years (or however long) in college, all while racking up debt and eating nothing but ramen, sort of makes his head spin. Pile that on with the fact that he really thinks there is absolutely no point in getting anything farther than a BA degree and there ya go. He was telling me that he was become quite successful with his single BA and said I should just start my own business. Yes, yes- everyone wants to hire a Political Scientist who doesn’t have a Masters! Or a historian! I just think he is stuck in his generation- a generation where even going to college at all was a big, big deal. Now, I have friends with to science bachelors that can’t find a job! Hire education is really a key nowadays, if you ask me.

[/QUOTE]

If this is uncharacteristic of him, and it sounds like it is…why don’t you ask him why he’s changed from a supportive, forward-thinking guy to a knuckle-dragging neanderthal? He may be educated and he may be old-school, and he may not be far off with regard to the practical usefulness of certain big degrees…but that’s still no excuse for calling his beloved daughter stupid.

42

I also had parents who were unsupportive when I went to college. I wouldn’t say they actively discouraged me - I’d call them puzzled and begrudging. They seemed to think school was some whim of mine, my latest fad that they had to endure. I did quite well, but I wonder how well I’d have done with a lot of encouragement and support.

43

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
And you know, I logically know anyone who says any of the above is a complete moron that I ought to pay no attention to, but when I get home from a final that I absolutely bombed and then I get bombarded with this crap for the millionth time, what am I supposed to think? And I know that I’m a stronger person than most- much more so- so it is no wonder so many people drop out of college or just run off and get married to someone they know will take care of them. Here I am, the strong person, genuinely questioning if I’m good enough or if I should even bother. My own father doesn’t believe me to be capable of much more than selling used cars. Used cars…

Have any of you ever experienced something like this? What on earth did you do to not go crazy?
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that happens to everybody.

I have days, when the computers are being particularly obstinate, the lusers are being particularly luserish, and I’m making stupid mistakes, when I wonder if I shouldn’t just chuck it all and stay home and pump out kids. Then I remember how terrible I am at housekeeping…

My first day of college, as an astronomy major, I was so scared by how hard my classes seemed, I wanted to drop it all and become a philosophy major.

ISTR reading in one of Erma Bombeck’s books that she sometimes wished she could run off and study apes in the jungle like Jane Goodall.

Einstein once said something like, “If I had it all to do over again, I would have been a plumber”. I know my classmates and I thought about this a lot while we were preparing for physics GREs- a couple of us were thinking of dropping out of physics and starting a nights-and-weekends plumbing business.

This attitude is pretty typical of less-than-mature science majors. Most of us grow out of it, and learn to respect people in other fields. The ones who don’t- well, they have a very effective contraceptive- their personalities.

You and I are the same height, BTW. Just as a useless piece of trivia, Kim Jong Il is the same height as us, or maybe an inch shorter (I’ve read that he’s 5’3" and that he’s 5’2").

My parents weren’t terribly supportive of me in college, either. I remember calling my mom once and talking about the computer science class I was taking. She asked me, “Have you fallen behind the rest of the class yet?” I ended up with an A in the class, actually :cool: They weren’t crazy about me majoring in astronomy, either. I ended up leaving the field, but I don’t wish I hadn’t majored in astronomy.

I have a rather different skill set than either of my parents does, so sometimes they think I’m not terribly smart because I find something they find easy to be difficult. Some people just have trouble realizing that someone with different skills and interests than theirs might be just as intelligent as them, just different.

44

I seem to recall reading somewhere (my Google-fu is not good enough today to find it) that the people who never doubt their abilities tend to actually be the least competent- they’re too dumb to know that they’re dumb. I’m sure we can all cite examples of such people from our own lives…

45

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]

And you know, I logically know anyone who says any of the above is a complete moron that I ought to pay no attention to, but when I get home from a final that I absolutely bombed and then I get bombarded with this crap for the millionth time, what am I supposed to think?

[/QUOTE]

I’m totally fishing here, but is there any chance that you are swaying the naysayers with your own angst? Do they hear about it when you do well, or do they only get to hear your tales of, and fears of failure? Do they get to hear your confidence, or do you only share during the rough times when you feel you need emotional support?

While it is certainly true that these folks might just be BAD BAD people, consider that the only view they have of your academic situation is the picture that you paint for them.

Now if you WERE very confident, and these folks were acting to “take you down a notch”, they’d just be assholes. If you are projecting an image of really struggling, though, they may be telling you “It’s OK if you fail, you can still have a good life, and we will still love you.”

46

Kevbo, the thing about it is that I’m probably the most perky person you’ll ever meet. Sure, there are times where I’m a bit stressed by my mountains of books to read, but even then I’m bopping around giggling and saying, “I have to read 500 pages tonight. FIVE HUNDRED! Woo hoo!” And then I start moonwalking through the living room. I wish I were kidding.

I’m perky to a fault. So I can’t imagine people trying to bring me down because they only hear of my failures. I really don’t fail all that much (it’s pretty hard to be a COMPLETE failure at a local university) and even if I did, I’m a bit too proud to ever talk about it.

I think maybe people are trying to take me down a peg. It happens, but it doesn’t make it any less crappy.

47

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]

**Most of my friends are in college! The primary difference is that they are all getting BSs (or studying business), while I’m getting a BA. .
[/QUOTE]

My educational background is in classical languages, medieval history, and rational choice political science. Yeah, people gave me shit too when I was in college, especially the future MBA types. At my job now with the world’s biggest credit card issuer, MBAs and kids with undergrad business degrees work for me.

If you’re half as smart as you think you are, you’ll do fine. Getting your first job out of school, assuming you do not pursue a PhD route, will be more difficult for you than for your colleagues. I took some crappy administrative jobs, ivy league degree and all. One year after graduation, I wasn’t exactly flying high. I got some more skills, took a few chances, and got lucky. Six years after, I have found that my position is very different.

Suck it up, study what you like, and face the consequences. Don’t graduate without taking buckets of noncooperative game theory and econometrics.

48

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I seem to recall reading somewhere (my Google-fu is not good enough today to find it) that the people who never doubt their abilities tend to actually be the least competent- they’re too dumb to know that they’re dumb. I’m sure we can all cite examples of such people from our own lives…
[/QUOTE]

Totally. When I had college application interviews, I’d run into the most arrogant people, who’d be all, “I don’t know why everyone is nervous; I never get nervous about these things. I mean, interviews are just for weeding out the really stupid people.” They never made it in.

And of course, in grad school it is usually the rule that those who know least talk most. For me, the more I learn, the more humbling it is, because you realize that there is just so MUCH MORE out there that you’re never going to be able to understand. I felt so stupid my first month here. Now, I’ve decided that I’m always going to feel stupid, and that that’s okay. I’d rather feel stupid than live under the illusion that I understand more than I actually do.

49

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I seem to recall reading somewhere (my Google-fu is not good enough today to find it) that the people who never doubt their abilities tend to actually be the least competent- they’re too dumb to know that they’re dumb. I’m sure we can all cite examples of such people from our own lives…
[/QUOTE]

Bingo! The old bookmark I had was no good, but I believe I have found the article on a different site. Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

50

[QUOTE=Zabali_Clawbane]
Bingo! The old bookmark I had was no good, but I believe I have found the article on a different site. Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
[/QUOTE]

Ahh, thank you, Zabali. That is the article I was thinking of.

51

Tell him that an educated mother is a better mother.

52

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
The Sausage Creature- that’s the thing. People keep telling me that I am wasting my time and money by pursuing a Master’s or a PhD. As I see it, it’s money I can spend studying what I love for a few more years and money spent that will virtually guarantee that I can find something for work.
[/quote]

I fly small airplanes for amusement. Talk about useless - unlike a degree this will never earn me money, only cost me. I get reactions like “Ewwww - why would you do that? You should leave that to the professionals”. Don’t even get me started…!

What’s the point of earning money beyond that needed for bare necessecities if you can’t spend it on what YOU want? There’s always some busy-body standing by to give you unsolicited advice on what to do with your money, time, energy, and life. Most of them aren’t too happy with their own life, I’ve long suspected they just want everyone as miserable as themselves.

If you enjoy going to school and learning DO THAT! If you have the means to study what you want then DO THAT! It is your life, no one else’s.

I have a freakin’ art degree! I have a good job - good enough for an expensive hobby. If you have a good work ethic and the self-discipline to finish a degree program you’ll be able to get work (usually).

You being female is probably a factor with some people, but men get it, too, sometimes, usually framed as “you can’t do what you want, you need to be responsible and work at this job to support your wife and kids.” Men get pressured on family issues to, just with a slightly different slant.

53

Geez, Diosa, are you sure you’re not Mexican? Most of my family on my Mom’s side is in Mexico and I’m the non-girly girl in the family. It’s a good thing I’m far away, because otherwise I"m sure I’d get a whole lot more “helpful suggestions.” My cousins gave up long ago trying to get me to worry more about hair and make-up. I think my aunt has finally given up on the suggestion that I move down there to “be with my family” which is code for “live with Mom” (she moved back to Mexico a while back). Not a welcome idea.

Anyhow, with my multiple liberal arts degrees (didn’t finish the literature dissertation), I’ve managed to make my way through the ranks in a state agency in positions that require a lot of technical knowledge that I’ve acquired along the way. I started as a temp making $7 an hour (how did I survive?) and now run a couple of departments and make enough to own a (small) house in a very nice neighborhood. Mom would like it better if I dressed like a princess and was married, but I’m unable to waste time and money on something that doesn’t fit my personality and the right guy hasn’t come along yet. Mostly she’s proud of me, but she still worries and periodically hopes for a transformation.

Despite the latent disapproval, I’ve managed to accomplish a lot of things I’ve wanted to and be really comfortable in MY life.

GT

54

Well, maybe they know people like some people I know. . .

They decided to go to graduate school in their 20’s, got another 80 grand in debt, spent a couple years doing post docs, and still wound up married and pregnant in their 30s staying home with the kids while Dad went to work to pay off the debt she racked up deconstructing James Joyce (or whatever the hell it is people in English Lit. school do).

I spent my 20s in grad school, but every cent of it was paid for, and every degree guaranteed a better position coming out.

I’m sure the modern mindset towards education is vastly superior to an older mindset, but it’s still possible to take that too far. A college is just as happy to take your money and not give you a worthwhile product in return as any other business.

What do you think of the possibility of staying in school for 4 more years and realizing you don’t have the horses for the Ph.D and so you drop out, barely more qualified for any job you’re not qualified for now?

What happens if you do get that Ph.D? You’re 30, coming out of school with a mountain of debt, competing against 200 other applicants for the same $35,000 a year Post Doc position at Middle Ozarks Community College.

Of COURSE professors recommend grad school. That’s their life, their livelihood. They keep the mythical status of grad school and the Ph.D. propped up. They have to for their egos.

Besides, what’s wrong with selling used cars?

If you want to write, go live a life. Sell used cars, and then write a story about the next Willy Loman.

55

As an aside, there is a great deal below that I disagree with. I know Trunk means well, but I just want to add an alternative viewpoint.

If you are going to go to grad school, you simply do not enroll in any program that won’t fully fund you. In the humanities you might have to pay for your first year, but that should be it. There are many fine grad programs, especially in the midwest, where you can enter and emerge with a minimum of debt and at least decent job prospects. If you go into debt for the tune of $80k, then, quite frankly, you are an idiot.

I cannot think of any kind of degree that guarantees a better position after than before. An acquaintance of mine got a shiny graduate degree in chemistry from a top school and can’t get anything more than a molecule monkey job. I have recruited both for my company in general and for positions that report to me. There are plenty of reasonably qualified and utterly unemployed MBAs out there.

No matter what you do, you take your chances. By the time you finish your engineering degree, the work you trained for might have left the country. I am sure you get the idea.

Second, professors at competitive schools do not recommend grad school in general, especially in the humanities. They are well aware of both the rigors of the education and of the tiny job prospects afterwards. They are also well aware of the economics of their profession. The more qualified PhDs there are without tenure-track jobs, the more likely their own teaching burden can be assumed by underpaid adjuncts. Top schools have been downsizing their PhD programs because they are well aware of the deprofessionalization of higher education in a sadly increasing number of fields. You don’t go to grad school in the humanities simply if you love the stuff; you go if you are willing to fucking starve for it. Odds are, you will starve one day.

I say this as someone looking forward to returning for his PhD in the humanities as soon as I have met my savings and career goals in the private sector. I have always wanted to be a professor, and I still plan to. But the best decision I ever made was not doing it right after college.

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Well, maybe they know people like some people I know. . .

They decided to go to graduate school in their 20’s, got another 80 grand in debt, spent a couple years doing post docs, and still wound up married and pregnant in their 30s staying home with the kids while Dad went to work to pay off the debt she racked up deconstructing James Joyce (or whatever the hell it is people in English Lit. school do).

I spent my 20s in grad school, but every cent of it was paid for, and every degree guaranteed a better position coming out.

I’m sure the modern mindset towards education is vastly superior to an older mindset, but it’s still possible to take that too far. A college is just as happy to take your money and not give you a worthwhile product in return as any other business.

What do you think of the possibility of staying in school for 4 more years and realizing you don’t have the horses for the Ph.D and so you drop out, barely more qualified for any job you’re not qualified for now?

What happens if you do get that Ph.D? You’re 30, coming out of school with a mountain of debt, competing against 200 other applicants for the same $35,000 a year Post Doc position at Middle Ozarks Community College.

Of COURSE professors recommend grad school. That’s their life, their livelihood. They keep the mythical status of grad school and the Ph.D. propped up. They have to for their egos.

Besides, what’s wrong with selling used cars?

If you want to write, go live a life. Sell used cars, and then write a story about the next Willy Loman.
[/QUOTE]

56

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Well, maybe they know people like some people I know. . ..
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know a few people like this. Unfortunately, 2 were also subjects
of my student loan thread.