As I said, Greathouse was a dick, no doubt about it. But it wasn’t out of nowhere – PinkMarabou shares the responsibility for the argument that ensued. If you respond to different opinions by immediately screaming insults, you have to be prepared for some to come back at you.
It is a shame that a fight broke out in his thread, but such are the hazards of posting in the Pit. Had he only wanted sympathy and commiseration, it would have been better to start the thread in MPSIMS. Had I gotten to it in time, I probably would have moved it there.
I’m very sorry that Max and his wife are having difficulties, and quite astonished that there would be such a money-grubbing mentality at any fertility clinic. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, though, that any business would try to cash in on folks by playing on their willingness to do whatever it takes.
Would I describe the behavior as “selfish”? No, but I think any single word or small phrase we tried to use to define it would seem insensitive. Plus, when you get right down to it, so what if it is selfish? There are plenty of things we *all *do in this world that are terribly selfish. I personally have a very expensive hobby. I probably could have afforded to adopted a child instead , but I don’t want to do that because I like my hobby. I’ll admit it. I’m selfish. You won’t be able to make me feel bad about it, though, and I’ve probably spent more than 10K on it in the past three years.
Now, because I’ve recently had to live through it, I have to take a friendly swipe at PinkMaribou…
I just want to give you a heads up that you may want to develop a plan for when the person hurting your pet is your child. :eek: Our dachshund and our three-year old had an … argument yesterday.
And, in closing, from the cheap seats it looked like: VCO3 was being an insensitive man-twat. PinkMaribou, being the opposite of insensitive on this subject, came out of the gate a little too strong with the sound and the fury. Greathouse taunts Happy Fun Ball.
But you see, VC03 insulted the OP, me, and anyone else going through fertility treatments. He was very insensitive and cruel and refused to see that. I called him out on that. It MAY be his opinion, but that’s like saying his opinion is to start killing babies in a thread about someone grieving over their dead child.
From my standpoint, it appears that anyone in this thread who has gone through infertility thinks that my comments to VC03 were justified. Anyone who has NOT gone through it, thinks I went over the top.
Greathouse is another story altogether. He was a dick from the get-go. You may say I opened myself up to it, it is a message board and I am in the Pit after all, but my comments were not directed at him in any way. Unless he’s sucking VC03’s dick or his wife has been beating him lately, there’s no excuse for him hitting well below the belt. Then he mocks me, repeatedly and abusively.
Try and think of how you would take this if you were in the shoes of some of us who have to deal with this. I know it’s difficult to do, but let me help you out. Read this.
To be perfectly fair, I do walk in those shoes. My wife and I have some very difficult and unpleasant decisions to make about our future. Somehow we both manage not to act like harpies whenever this topic of conversation comes up.
No, I’m still here. I haven’t posted for the last few days because the thread went all cattywumpus and there didn’t seem much point. I figured responding to the hijack for either position would just add fuel to the fire and get things even farther off course.
Anyway, the latest is that Bingo the Office Clown has mailed me copies of the stuff we signed for our IVF and a computer printout of all our charges and credits, which is mighty dense reading. However, nowhere in the materials does it say that the charge includes “up to six” monitoring visits, as the clown claimed on the phone. To the contrary, the materials he sent us say “six monitoring visits.” Meaning, as I tried to make clear to this jackass on the phone, that we paid in advance for two visits we never used.
From here on, I’m doing everything in writing. Today I’m writing a personal demand letter. If that doesn’t get a response, I know plenty of lawyers who would be happy to write a letter for me for free.
Max Torque, I’m so sorry for everything that happened to you and your wife.
My mother, who is a doctor, spent two weeks last year working in the former “dying room” of a Chinese orphanage. A Christian charity has taken over the room, and they provide medical care to the children that would otherwise have been left there to die (mostly the babies and children have spina bifida, cerebral palsy or brain damage or cosmetic conditions such as cleft palate). Some of these babies are well enough to go back into the orphanage (which is not a nice place), but their only prospect of adoption is from foreign couples, as disabled kids aren’t considered adoptable in China.
All I can say is, that a baby from China (yes, they are mostly girls, but not always) is a great direction to go for, because you really are giving them a better life. Mum has pictures of an American woman who came to pick up her new daughter from the orphanage. The looks on the faces of the older kids who don’t get to go makes you want to take them all home.
Yes, I did respond to you being a dick and coming in here to start trouble.
Have you ever been through infertility?
Has anyone ever told you that you and your wife were selfish for making choices about parenthood?
Has anyone mocked your medical condition?
How would you feel if someone was mocking your spouses medical condition?
I only mention this because I think you’ve had a rough deal and are probably not a self-absorbed social intolerable most of the time.
My wife has two medical issues, none labeled “infertility”. Due to these issues it is unlikely that she would be able to carry a child safely to term even if she can conceive. Fertility treatments are a non-starter.
No one has ever mocked her nor me. Nor do we bray about how unfortunate we are or that it just isn’t fair that some people can just spread their legs and get knocked up in two minutes.
Either her health will improve or it won’t. Either we will have a child or we won’t. If we can adopt, we will love the child no less than any biological child of ours. At the end of the day, if we want a family, we will have one. But we will try not to waste any time longing for what we cannot have and instead appreciate what we do have.
I’m very sorry about your wife’s condition. I really hope she improves.
My cousin was diagnosed with lupus about 4 years ago. She’s newly married . As long as I’ve known her, she’s always wanted many children. Right now, she’s sturggling through what little college courses she can handle to hopefully become a teacher. They knew there was a possibility they couldn’t have kids as soon as she was diagnosed. Up until they got married, it was still a possibility. She just found out if she gets pregnant, it will kill her. So they are adopting and I’m thrilled for them.
There’s no problem with me having kids. We have no physical or medical conditions that would impair our lives if children were a part of it. It’s something we’re still trying to figure out what our options are at this point. We have a lot of bridges to cross.
Maybe in my first post, my anger was a little misdirected. I’m jealous and angry that so many people have it easy, many of which are horrible parents. It makes me sick to know there are options out there for us, but we can’t get it done because of the cost. It’s not like a situation where you can’t get refused treatment. You have to pay up-front for this stuff.
I’m very angry. I’m angry that medical insurance will pay for viagra, but not for fertility. I’m angry that fertility clinics charge an arm and a leg for some of their procedures and try and swindle people into getting the most expensive one every time. I’m angry that some insurance will cover the cost for a boob job because “it was detrimental to their emotional being”. What, does mine not cause me emotional heartache? I’m angry that some taxes can’t be diverted to helping the infertile when it seems to go to causes far less. I’m angry at the whole medical system and the government for not doing something about this now big-business; from the insurance companies to drug companies to specialists charging whatever the hell they feel like to people with the numerous lawsuits driving the cost of medical care up. I’m angry and I have every right to feel this way.
I know you and your wife have to go through hard times as well, and I’m not trying to downplay that at all. But you are coming from a different starting point. More people will be sympathetic to what you’re going through because there’s an overlying factor. I don’t agree with it or think it’s fair, but that’s the way it is. Even telling people you have a fertility problem causes hurtful comments, unwarranted advice, and uneducated opinions. We deal with this all the time. The majority of people aren’t sympathetic and caring about these things, they think “you’re doing it wrong”. That, among dozens of other phrases, grates on your nerves. They don’t realize it, but their little “opinions” just piss us off. We already know. In fact, we know FAR MORE THAN THEY WILL EVER KNOW.
But getting back to this whole mess. How would you feel if someone had told you that your wife shouldn’t get treatment for whatever she’s dealing with because it would make her “selfish” and that other people have it far worse than her so she should just deal with it? You would be (rightfully) offended. Maybe I shouldn’t have wasted my time on that piece of discarded foreskin, but sometimes people say things to you that will hit a nerve. This person in particular refused to see what he said as wrong and then didn’t have the balls to come in here and defend or explain himself.
People don’t look at your wife as a failure, they look at her as a victim. They’re not so kind to people facing infertility. It’s always our fault it happened, or we didn’t do something right, or it’s not “God’s Will” (if you’re an atheist, that one REALLY grates on your nerves!), or “why don’t you just adopt?”. It’s always something with us, there’s always something that we’re not doing. And because people can’t physically see what’s wrong with you, they assume it’s small or it doesn’t exist.
Me blowing up from time to time because someone made a careless, ignorant, and uneducated comment is not that bad. And on top of all that, this thread started in the pit. People say shit here. I took the opportunity to try to help fight ignorance. To me, and some of the other posters here facing infertility, his comment was horrible. You don’t tell people that they’re selfish because they want to have a family.
So take this how you want. I’m getting exhausted with this whole thing. But know that to a person in my shoes, what VC03 said is the same as giving advice to a suicidal person on how to do it most efficiently. He was a major jerk. I’ve seen people get pitted here for far less than what he did.
This definitely articulates your position a little better.
Thank you.
Yeah, I know. My aunt and uncle spent ~$50k on various fertility treatments before they conceived. The cost was flabbergasting, as was the strain on their family during the process. I wonder whether or not people who do go down that road truly know what fun they are in for.
Well yeah. You won’t find too many defenders of the healthcare industry here.
People are probably more sympathetic because her freedom to make everyday choices is significantly more constrained. Just as people would probably be more sympathetic to your cousin, whose cross is probably heavier than my wife’s. My wife would agree: sympathy in proportion to suffering.
This is consistent with any other persistent medical condition. “Have you tried acupuncture?” “Drink more cranberry juice!” “My aunt always did…” We’ve heard it all.
I suppose you could be pissed off or you could take their remarks in the spirit that they are given.
Not getting treatment would swiftly yield physical suffering, debilitation, and probably death. As much sympathy as I have for the infertile, I am reasonably confident that not getting fertility treatments does not result in the above. I do not understand what this analogy is supposed to illustrate.
She knows very well that many people have it far worse and is very thankful for what she has. She is the upbeat one; I am the melancholic. There’s nothing wrong with me that a little alcohol wouldn’t cure and make worse at the same time.
Perhaps they look at her as a victim because her issues do more than prevent her from realizing one of her desires using one particular method. They circumscribe her daily life. This difference is nontrivial.
I think that asking why you do not adopt is a fair question, honestly. It’s one we have fielded many times. Our usual answer is that when push comes to shove, we probably will, despite the fact that any natural born children of ours would be devilishly attractive conquerors.
Well, you can tell people that they are selfish because they want to have a family but only a biological one. It may not be the most sensitive position, but it is internally consistent and proceeds from reasonable premises. Obviously, no one likes to hear it.
The thing that sticks out at me the most from your posts, PinkMarabou is your use of the word “fair”.
Life is not fair. Life sucks in different ways for everyone.
Why should insurance companies pay for fertility treatment? The goal of fertility treatment is to create children and children cost money. Then the insurance companies would have to cover the medical costs of the birth and health of the children.
Why should taxes go to help people conceive? There isn’t a shortage of people in this country.
Why should the medical system do something about this “big-business” and what would you have them do?
Sweetheart, I know life is unfair. We’ve all had our share of it.
You would think with this “moral values” and “pro-life” crowd, they wouldn’t care how many people are around. But I’m also in favor of universal healthcare, I think a lot of things should be taken care of that are not. Christ, at the very least they should treat it like any other medical issue and let people pay it off slowly. For the rest, I suggest you read that paragraph again. That sums it all up.
