I don't need your damn opinion on my family size!

No sweat, culture.

You’re correct about the denominator changing. However, the numerator is constantly shifting for most resources as well.

Your arguments are predicated on a static model of resource availability, which does not reflect what is happening, observably, all around us.

My point about commodity pricing illustrates this. A scarce commodity is expensive. Indeed, this is the purpose of pricing - to reflect the scarcity of a good in order to help it to be used in an economically efficient way.

If we were running out of commodities due to our exploding population, these commodity prices would be exploding. This isn’t happening for most commodities. Many are much cheaper now, even with more people consuming them.

AfterAugust, my kids are sorta adopted. At least, I’m raising two kids who didn’t “spew forth from my loins” and I consider them just as much my kids. (And, yes, I am their full-time mommy, not a part-time step-mom.)

I probably wouldn’t adopt children if I didn’t already have so many, mostly because there’s no way I could afford it. There have been times that we considered having me adopt my step-kids, and the cost is too far beyond us.

IMHO, the cost of adopting a child is far too inhibitive for many people.

**What are the limits on technology? Could you have forseen twenty years ago much of what is in our stores now?

Can you name any period in the last thousand years that saw technological innovation cease?
[/quote]

Technology runs up against walls all the time. Case in point: space exploration. Back in the mid-1900s we all thought we’d have colonies on Mars by now. We don’t even have colonies on the moon, and the space station is just a couple of trailers floating in near-Earth orbit.

There’s also the case of medicine. Medicine made great strides in the 18th and early in the 20th century, but then it seemed to stall. With the exception of pretty much wiping out the polio virus, we haven’t BEATEN a lot of illnesses, we’ve mostly discovered palliatives that let us live a long time with them, as is the case now with diabetes, AIDS, and a number of others. Some very common health problems, like the aptly named common cold, weight control and cancer continue to plague us.

I personally think that in a decade or two advances in microbiology and genetics are very likely to make everything we’ve done up until now in medicine look crude and barbaric, but that doesn’t changed the fact that medicine stalled. It stalled because the early advances of medicine were cases of solving the easy problems, and when we started wrestling with the tougher problems, we found they weren’t so easy to beat.

Just as we found that space is not so easy – or cheap, or profitable early on – to conquer. We may eventually have colonies in other solar systems. We may eventually wipe out disease. But meanwhile, people still die, and meanwhile, we remain confined to this planet. We may eventually find ways to grow food (microbiology and genetics again) that will solve that problem.

But do we grow our population until we are all living shoulder to shoulder and every inch of land that is not developed is under cultivation? When is enough enough? What heritage do we want to pass on to our children? Is rush hour a GOOD thing?

It seems to me that the people who argue against population controls are like spendthrifts who are willing to draw money out of a bank account as fast as they can, without worrying about how much money is actually in there.

If there are no limits on human fecundity, why are many countries at zero or negative population growth now? If there are no limits, the numbers should be rising everywhere.

Thank you for pointing that out. In the countries in which population growth among some segments of the population is negative or less, they aren’t encountering limits to growth like starvation, war or disease. They are CHOOSING not to have kids. This is a good thing. This I approve of. I like people having choices. But as has been pointed out, when people choose to limit their population to increase their living standards, pressure tends to build up for the country to accept immigrants from poorer countries where such choices are typically not being made. How 'bout that? People wanting to live in those countries where people are making good choices. Kinda makes you think.

**For those of you who believe that having too many people will rob the planet of resources vital to all of humanity, may I suggest that you refrain from reproducing, effective immediately?

Please make a note in your calendar to smother your parents in their sleep on the seventieth birthday. That’ll give them a few years to enjoy retirement.**

This is what I call the Black Lesbian Mother argument, as articulated by John Belushi in the play “Lemmings” in which he declares, “If you are not a black … lesbian … mother, you are an Oppressor! And you should immediately go out and dig a hole and crawl into it and beat yourself to death with a stick to make your death environmentally righteous!”

This was circa 1973, it’s always amusing to see people advancing arguments, even in jest, that were ridiculous enough to be parodied 30 years ago. What next, railings against flappers as evidence of moral decay?

How very cool Cessandra! I giggled when I read that because I am in a somewhat similar situation and at 25 had five children.
I still never really break it down to I had two, he had one, we had two together. WE have five!

Do you know how hard it is to get seating for seven at a resturant?

BeagleDave and his family have stopped by my house at times and seen the heathens running amok in the yard.
My house is wild, crazy, and loud at times. I wouldn’t give it up for the world. Heck, half the time I have my oldest childs brothers and sister with me and take them all swimming, hiking, or to the zoo.
I started young, and granted right now I have nil for free time but I know I will again.
They get to miss out on all the fun arguments of “he/shes touching/looking/laughing/kicking/whatever me”

Right after I had my youngest my grandmother called me crying and telling me that she was so happy I was getting my tubes tied so that way I would never have to go through the horror of pregnancy and child birth again.
I almost told her that I was going to cancel and continue to have more. I didn’t do that but I did hang up on her.
I wanted more, he did not. It took alot of discussing.
I have offered to carry a child for my sister in law. I would do it for a few friends of mine as well.
They get the lovely “everything happens for a reason” speach and I get pretty much the same one.
You know for some reason they weren’t meant to have children and I would be messing up some balance out there.
I also get the wow, five, are you done yet? Some days I enjoy the shock value of telling them I just found out I am pregnant with twins (not true) and other days I just ignore them.
Even more confusing when I have all eight children (mine and his ex-wifes) and they all call me mom to get my attention faster than calling me by name.
A few weeks ago at Wal-Mart I had a lady in line in front of me who I thought was getting irritated because my youngest son was acting up (he’s not well again), but to my suprise she turned around and asked if she could give them each a dime for the gumball machine to give me a few seconds break. She told me that she raised seven on her own and understood how sometimes children can get antsy.
And tonight we took the younger three up to see the older two sing in chorus and a gentleman next to us commented on how wonderful it was to see a large supportive family, parents who pay attention to their children, and children that were well behaved, and there there were many adults and other children there who could have behaved better.

Well, I’m rambling and getting off topic here so I will leave the debating (which I am not good at) and arguing to the masses.

Oh and Dave dear? I’ve heard rumors of the valentines and was wondering why I haven’t seen recent pictures? Remember, I’m the one who could have gotten her that lovely pacifier with the cletus teeth but did not. I think I deserve pictures because of that and (guilt trip comming…) the fact that I don’t get a chance to actually stop by and see you folks in person.
I really have thought about stopping by many times but don’t want to intrude. That and my group and be quiet overwhelming at times.

Well, I’ve got my two and the barn door is starting to swing, so I’m assuming that’s it. It took me six pregnancies to get them, though. Three ended in miscarriage and one was a botched delivery that resulted in my son’s death six months later.

Would I have more, given the chance? Nope! There’d be a long line of people waiting to slap me, starting with my doctor! I would have liked a girl, but the boy’s are just fine. Medically, another pregnancy might have been suicidal.

I was an “Only” and I always tell people my parents got it right the first time. :slight_smile: I was lucky enough to have both parents and my grandmother living at home and my best friend was only across the alley. Mr zoogirl was the eldest of four and he seems to have had to go short a lot of the time. He’s not too close to any of his sibs now.

I did have a half sister who is twenty years older than me but I’ve only seen her three times. She’d had two kids of her own by the time I came along. When I was born, Mom was twenty-nine and Dad was forty-seven. I used to have people assume he was my grandfather all the time. The age factor wasn’t why they decided to stop at me, his health was. They were told, after his first heart attack when I was nine months, not to have more kids. Of course he lasted another twenty-five years after that…

Recently both a cousin and a long-time friend have had first children in their forties. On the whole, I’d rather have 'em while I was young enough to chase 'em. I was 26 & 29 (almost) when I had the boys and I think that was late enough.

Cessandra, I think you sound like a great mom. There’s only one drawback to blended families, though. A good friend of mine married an older guy and they raised one of hers, two of his and one of theirs. Since there is only a few years between the eldest boy and my friend, she found herself a grandma at twenty-nine! Ouch!

My position was more rhetorical than actual; I have no desire to see anyone be miserable. But in the interest of the rhetor:

While your position may have some sort of theoretical moral superiority, it’s akin to a position of absolute non-violence or unilateral disarmament – admirable in the abstract, but useless in the practical. While you calmly agree to limit your family size, others will continue to reproduce unchecked. The end result is that your potential to pass on your genes will be diminished or extinguished, while others will flourish.

If the whole world would buy into the need to reduce population, you might have something. But as long as it’s just me making the sacrifice… sorry. I’m not that altruistic.

  • Rick

I had just turned eight before my brother was born, which meant I had several years on my own. Mom tells me she didn’t quite trust herself not to spoil me and turn me into the worst of “only” brats, which was at least part of the reason they had my brother.

It was fun, though, because I was old enough to be of genuine assistance with the baby. It made life a lot easier for Mom because our dad got sent to Korea for a year when my brother was two months old. (That’s the kind of stuff that happens to military families all the time, so I’m not claiming that makes us special or anything.)

Personally I don’t want more than two. Ever. Regardless of how I acquire them, assuming I do. Now, if Mr. Perfect came along with three, sure, I’d take 'em on. And I would NEVER say anything to anybody with a large family besides, “Wow, some family you’ve got there!”

Ah the Bill Cosby argument. I was wondering when that would show up. (For those of you who don’t know, Bill Cosby once did a routine in which he said people who had only children weren’t really parents because they missed out on the “Will you stop touching me!” and passing the blame that siblings do. I think it was part of the “Himself” video.) (Additional note: it was a comedy routine, not to be taken seriously.)

Hmmm…I grew up listening to Bill Cosby tapes. Maybe that’s why I don’t want children. (Note: also not to be taken seriously.)

But you forgot the best part of that Cosby riff- when the only child starts saying “Will you stop touching me!”

:smiley:

I love Bill, and he was dead right about kids. I love my little princes, but I can already see that they are going to be such a handful. The three year old is already a master manipulator, even though he is a man of few words. His baby brother will learn at his feet, I assume.

I wanted a daughter all my life, but haven’t gotten one. Will we try again? Perhaps. We haven’t decided, although it will have to be pretty soon (I am 35, we started late). The issues we are looking at? Ability to spend quality time with the youngest as well as the older two, financial stuff both now and going forward, the size of our home, etc. I am not one bit worried about the additional resources my third child might consume.

I’m semi-engaged (we know we’re getting married, he’s just waiting for the right time to propose), and I do want children. We’ve definitely decided on one, not so much decided on two. Honestly, if I have a girl the first time, I think I would be fine with one child (Yes, I’m a horrible person, but I want a daughter over a son). There’s a part of me that would love to have a huge family (my mom came from four kids, dad from five, and I always wanted to have a big family so my kids could have tons of siblings), but it’s simply not practical. Unless I sell a book or a screenplay, neither of us will have the money to support a larger family. And we’ll be starting late since I won’t be having kids until I finish graduate school in another two years - when I’m thirty - so I’ll want to have them sooner rather than later.

Ava

javaman: *And frankly I do denigrate the choice for a large family. We’re quick to criticize those who drive around in gas guzzling behemoth SUV’s, and agree with that criticism. But it’s highly hypercritical that, on one hand, the right to unlimited procreation seems to be so sacrosanct as to be beyond debate or criticism, while on the other hand we proclaim the virtues of conservation in every other sphere. *

I think you mean “hypocritical”, not “hypercritical”. But my non-trivial comment on this statement is that, while it may have a point in terms of abstract principle, it isn’t a justification for criticizing any particular person’s choice to have a large family.

Yes, population growth poses some serious problems for the world, and reducing it will reduce the impact of those problems somewhat. However, the situation is way more complicated than that. An interesting book called Beyond the Limits to Growth suggests that world resource use is already in an “overshoot-and-collapse” model, and that even if we had no more births at all from now on we would still be experiencing severe problems with resource scarcity in the next few decades (until, of course, we went extinct from lack of reproduction).

In other words, a small minority of families choosing to have more than two kids isn’t really a significant problem, and never will be. (And of course, a family of six or eight people living modestly has less of an impact on resource use than one single person with a very luxurious lifestyle with lots of jet travel, a mansion, a motorboat, etc.) What we need to do is change systemic resource use on a large scale. Complaining about specific individuals’ choosing to have four kids (which is inexcusably rude, btw, no matter how ecologically pure your motives are) is nitpicking: it’s like the Union of Concerned Scientists’ example of “driving a Land Rover a quarter mile to the store to pick up a quart of milk and then thinking that ‘Paper or plastic?’ is an important choice”.

In other words, saying “To support human life sustainably from now on, most people should have fewer than three children, and we should provide incentives to support that choice” is fine. Saying “This particular individual who chose to have three or more children is being irresponsible and selfish, and I denigrate his/her choice” is not only inexcusably rude but completely beside the point.

I was 16 and married when I had my first baby and 22 when I had my last. I was pregnant two other times, one a miscarriage, one a tubal pregnancy gone wrong that ended up with me having a hysterectomy when I was 23.

I have heard every comment you can imagine regarding teen pregnancies, teen marriages, when am I going to have another one, whether or not I look old enough to have kids in their 20’s.

They were all met with the same sort of reply. Either “Why in the world would you ask me a question as personal as that” or “Why on earth do you think I should be interested in such an inappropriate/presumptious remark/question/statement ?”

Most people who make comments like that don’t realize how stupid and cloddish they are. Or they know full well how obnoxious they are but feel you are entitled to their opinion all the same. Either way they don’t deserve a reply.

The “you having another child is my business due to the fact that you are using up valuable resources” argument coupled with the “I claim moral superiority” comment takes stupidity and arrogance to whole new levels.

For my part at least I’m not claiming moral superiority over people who have lots of kids. I’m just saying that a) please recognize that it is a luxury if you don’t need to have lots of the little bambino’s running to make sure at least one of them makes it to maturity (and I’m not condemning luxury here–just stating that it’s not essential for survival) and b) if you have a large family, don’t expect society to pick up the tab just because you decided to have a large family. If you can’t support lots of kids, don’t have them in other words (the example that always springs to mind is that idiotic Mormon extremist who had multiple wives, lots of kids, and fed/clothed them at public expense). I’m not saying anyone here is like this–y’all seem responsible etc. etc.–just making a point. If that makes me a clod then so be it–believe me, I’ve been called much worse and emerged okay! :wink:

Well, I’m not going to have children (sterilisation appointment is booked and things are moving along in that department nicely, thank you very much) and I agree with the OP entirely.

Why does anyone think it’s their business what anyone else does with their uterus ?

Nosy people, especially those who argue with you about your decision (you’ll change your mind / you can’t only have one, it’ll be spoiled / shouldn’t you get your hubby fixed, etc) need to be put in their place and shown exactly how inappropriate and rude their comments are.

Goo: I wish I could get sterilized. I don’t know if you’re a man or woman or how old you are or if this is as major an issue where you live as it is where I live, but I’m still fighting a losing battle.

Congrats to you for being able to exercise your decision.

Did that sound wrong when I said it? Sometimes I don’t say things right. I mean about the parents of onlies not having to go through the “Stop touching me” thing.
A couple of dopers explained it better than I.

I mentioned that I started early. I was in my teens as well and got alot of grief for that. Did any of them know that I was going to school, holding a job, and my own apartment?
Nope, they saw a pregnant young person and it was a scandle. Still is according to some of my family.
I also got “oh, are you expecting again ?”
Ages of children 13, 12, 11, 6 & 5. For a month the youngest two are the same age. The gap inbetween 11 and 5 there were two miscarriges.
Sure, I changed alot of diapers and made lots of formula and barely got any sleep. But you know what? After the last one was potty trained I was done with diapers.
Others in my family on the other hand believe in spacing and my cousin will be changing diapers for what will seem like forever.
It works for her to space, it worked for me to be hectic for a few years and then get a baby break. Now they are all in school all day and I get even more time to get things done during the day.
That would be another advantage to having an only.

There are lots and lots of decisions to make on family timing and size and it’s nobodies business but your own and who you choose to include.

I can imagine! It’s hard enough to get some places to get you a highchair! (If you have a kids’ menu, and crayons on the table, you SHOULD have highchairs!)

Actually, my dh is convinced that this pregnancy is going to be twins. He drives me nuts! I’ve taken to denying that I am even pregnant (I’m not showing! I’m just fat!) to combat his twin-craziness. :slight_smile:

He has informed me, however, that due to my raging hormonal irrationality, this will be our last pregnancy. Fine with me! :slight_smile:

(Am I going to get people in the street telling me that we really ought to have a fifth child? :wink: )

I’m so sorry. I went through this with my family. I made the mistake of announcing at Christmas that we were trying. When I called to give the news that we were pregnant in January, my grandmother informed me that she was praying I wouldn’t get pregnant. Combined with my other grandmother questioning our financial stability and my mom saying, “Congrats… I guess,” I was not feeling the love.

Well, when I am 29 my oldest will be… 13. If I am a grandmother at that point, she will have some serious explaining to do!! :slight_smile:

I read this article about this 18 year old girl who was sitting in the OB/GYN’s office, obviously pregnant and getting all the usual glances from other patients. What they didn’t know is that she was out of school, married, and both she and her husband were in the Armed Forces. I sort of sympathized with her because of the looks I get from people who haven’t a clue. Frankly, I don’t know why you were married and having kids at 16, but at this point in your life, if you can look back and say you didn’t make the wrong decision, then you probably DIDN’T. And if you did, then that’s still your business and no one elses.

QUOTE]*Originally posted by catsix *
**Goo: I wish I could get sterilized. I don’t know if you’re a man or woman or how old you are or if this is as major an issue where you live as it is where I live, but I’m still fighting a losing battle.

Congrats to you for being able to exercise your decision. **
[/QUOTE]

That sucks SO much. To be honest, it seriously bothers me that this nation allows someone to end a pregnancy they don’t want, but won’t allow a woman to make a choice to PREVENT that pregnancy. If you are over 18, you should have every right to decide to have your tubes tied, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Cessandra, I’m glad you shared your story, even though you would have been perfectly justified to slap down the first poster who made a snide comment.

I have a friend in a similar situation. In one year, she has gone from being 21 and single to married with three kids. She married a great guy with a 12 year old daughter, and got pregnant with twins on the honeymoon or immediately thereafter. Woo hoo! The 12 year old is excited about the babies, but even more excited about having a mom. The “egg donor” was never there, so she was raised by her dad.

More power to you!

culture…

You and Mr. Moto keep going at it about world population. In the late 60’s Paul Ehrlich wrote a treatise called The Population Bomb. It was widely praised at the time, however now has been pretty much debunked. You see a lot of the scenarios we predict don’t come true because one or more variables change. When this happens it makes a noticeable change in the results.

Several Population Bomb/Paul Ehrlich links:

http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/people/paul_ehrlich.html

http://www.fumento.com/bomb.html
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/biology/faculty/ehrlich.html
http://www.sepp.org/controv/ehrlich.html
http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/People/julian_simon.html

Hey, don’t feel bad…even Nostradamus made misteaks! :wink: