I don’t remember the episode (or movie) but somebody referred to Uhura as a “fair maiden” and “Sorry, neither” was her response.
eta: It was Sulu, who was hallucinating he was a swashbuckling swordsman, in The Naked Time.
Thank you. That is hilarious!
So Claire’s taken her pants off, and Marten’s delighted with what he sees, but what he sees is none of our business and if we look curious we deserve to be scolded, and I’m wondering what this strip adds that wouldn’t have been covered adequately by going straight to the scene later on where they’re still obviously really happy with each other.
He could have made yesterday’s the Friday strip and Monday gone on with the story in the happy aftermath, let us fill in the details; but as it is this is just about as overt as he can make it about trans identity not being about what the person has or does not have. Ah, good art always invites critique…
Hey, we could have had a Yelling Bird strip directly saying “what he saw and how they did it is none of you snotwads’ business” in no uncertain terms. (We may yet get one anyway!) I’m not sure that would be better and Jeph probably was getting pounded with demands that he *should *address it directly with the characters, on-panel, already. From that side it could be argued that critics who’d prefer the implicit storytelling style just want to stay in the comfort zone and not have to see things happen, gloss over it in polite bourgeois sensibility.
The last couple of weeks are at least inequivocally a sequence about reiterating what a Truly Good Man is Marten.
So was Claire wearing pants underneath the dress she wore to Martin’s apartment? What the heck?
Hey, you know what, I actually meant “pants” in the English sense, but yes, what’s that she was wearing under the blue dress? 
Of course I do. :smack:
My point is that this undercuts the ‘in Jeph’s utopian world, everyone is so very, very cool about it, it isn’t even an issue, which is what is being demonstrated’ theory. Clearly, in his fictional world, it still is an issue.
The contrast here is with your ‘in the utopian world of Star Trek, no-one cares Uhura is Black, which is just the point being made’ point. Clearly, the two are NOT analogous.
Bright pink pants!
At least they’ll be easy to find in the blue-on-blue-on-blue 6’x10’ prison cell Marten calls a bedroom 
“My God, it’s full of stars!”
Not sure you do, actually. Even absent the threat of violence or rejection, a lot of trans people don’t want an adjective in front of their gender. They want to be perceived as just “a girl” (or boy, depending), not a “trans girl.” It’s not uncommon for people who have successfully transitioned to cut ties with people they knew before and during their transition, even people who were highly supportive, simply because they don’t want any reminders of their life before transition.
Obviously, this isn’t entirely the case with Claire, but politics of revealing one’s trans status are a lot more complicated than simply, “Are these people going to beat me up?”
Clinton’s reaction when he learned Claire had come out to Marten tells us that trans rights are not 100% in Jephs world, and I haven’t suggested otherwise. That doesn’t mean that the strip necessarily has to make an issue out of Claire’s gender. Despite a lot of gay characters, Jeph’s never done a big gay rights story arc, and sexuality has really only been a plot point in terms of who hooks up with who.
That wasn’t the point of my Star Trek analogy. I was not comparing the statuses of Uhura and Claire within their fictional settings, but how the artist who created them treated them as minority figures. Roddenberry didn’t need to justify not having Uhura’s race be a plot point. Jeph doesn’t need to justify not having Claire’s gender be a plot point. It’s possible to include minority characters in a narrative without making their minority status part of the narrative, and doing so is not a weakness or a mistake in the story.
Claire is really unsure of herself, she’s shown that in practically everything she’s done. So, oddly enough, when it comes to sex, she’s all nervous and self conscious.
This also might be a way of the author answering the question ‘What equipment is Claire packing?’ with ‘It doesn’t matter’.
You are projecting a lot onto me. I never said anything like ‘the politics of revealing one’s trans status essentially amount to “Are these people going to beat me up?”’.
Where exactly are you getting this from? It seems a trifle unfair as a characterization.
The difference is, once again, it is clear that in the circles in which Jeph’s story takes place, being gay isn’t a deal - it isn’t, in an sense, a “secret” held by anyone.
You simply can’t have it both ways - have a ‘closeted’ character (for whatever reason), and pretend that the fact of their keeping their status a secret isn’t a deal for that character. It is incoherent.
If you are having a charcter who, for whatever reason, is keeping their sexuality a secret “in-universe”, and the whole plot (basically) revolves around characters (including her) having relationships, including sexual relationships, it is bizzare to argue it isn’t already a “plot point”. One which the author, of his own free will, created.
The way to have it not be a “plot point” is to have it not be a secret ‘in-universe’ - to have it out in the open, just like the (various) gay characters.
This just seems obvious on its face. I have no idea why it is so controversial.
She’s also a virgin (anyhow, she’s admitted to not “dating” before, and that’s what I thought she meant).
That never helps with the nervousness and self-consciousness stuff, either.
The difference is that “gay” is an identity that most gay people are glad to embrace publicly in a way that many trans people are not interested in claiming, regardless of how accepting their social circle might be.
That’s not something I’ve argued in this thread.
I’ve already pointed out three ways in which Claire coming out to Marten was an important, in-universe plot point. You’re the one who’s been complaining that her being trans “having no impact whatsoever on the strip.” I have been arguing that, even if that were the case, it’s not a flaw in the narrative.
Yes? This is a refutation of my point … how?
We both agree that this is the case.
To be honest, I am not totally sure exactly what you are arguing in this thread. But whatever it is, you evidently feel very strongly about it! 
My point is pretty simple - that, if you create a character with a very important in-universe secret concerning her sexual identity, and have the plot revolve in part at least around her sexual relationships, that identity - and the secret - is gonna impact on the plot. There is no reason to complain that the plot must be “all about” that issue, but it is gonna have an impact.
Seems self-evident to me. If you agree with that, I don’t know why you are arguing.
Uh, not exactly, no.
I never said Jeph’s strip was one in which her being trans had “no impact whatsoever”.
I said there was an excluded middle between the strip being “all about” her identity, and having her identity have “no impact whatsoever”. The point being, of course, that having it be a plot point doesn’t of necessity make her character be “all about” her sexual identity.
I never said that Jeph’s strip falls at that “no impact whatsoever” end-point. On that we agree - it impacts the plot.
You appear to be arguing that one of those end-points - namely, the “no impact whatsoever” - makes narrative sense (were it to happen, which you are not saying it did).
I disagree.
I disagree because having a character keep an important secret concerning their sexuality in a strip in which sexual relationships are a main component of the plot of necessity makes that secret a “plot point”.
It doesn’t matter in the slightest what that secret is.
Malthus, I think I may have mistakenly attributed some comments to you that originally came from squeegee, and have been arguing with you on that basis. Sorry for that, my fault for not reading closely enough.
I don’t have any substantial disagreements with your last post.
No probs. 
Miller, sorry I haven’t been around to back up (or take back) my comments since I said them. As I said in post 1697, I was channeling/paraphrasing someone else’s comments upthread, which was shorthand for my own mixed feelings about how Jeph is approaching Claire’s character, and her ‘fit’ within the story, and especially what he seems to feel is okay to discuss and what isn’t within that story, and it was well done.
You’ve addressed some of this, and I have some minor disagreements with your characterizations (e.g. Claire coming out to Marten showing that she’s MAJOR interested in him romantically - no, sorry, not getting that: she just felt she trusted him friendship-wise and felt comfortable coming out, no more), but your points are well taken: early on Claire’s status had major plot stuff going on and it drove the story.
Since then, her dating Marten was a huge turning point that has mostly fallen in terms of exploring Claire’s character, which I’m keenly interested in. I see you’re defending it in an “it doesn’t matter and it shouldn’t” way, and I respect that viewpoint utterly. I’m just a bit frustrated that to Claire and Marten, being in this very, very new place for them, I want to get some experience of how they work things out, and what’s either awesome or problematic. No, and, not in terms of what parts go where, okay?
I haven’t had a lot of time to revisit the thread lately and quibble about this, and I love to quibble and it’s an extremely interesting topic to me. So I’m sorry I haven’t been back to lob the ball back and forth a few times since my post that seems to have gotten you and Malthus bickering, and I apologize.
Today’s comic, with Marten and Claire being silly in the afterglow, is really sweet. Claire’s face is very cute in panels 2 and 3.
That comic is timely for me. I just watched a porn video with an absolutely perfect girl (at least as far as my tastes are concerned), and she kept her glasses on the entire time.
I won’t link it here … just search “Samantha Rone” on an appropriate site. You’ll find it.