CrazyCatLady:
Not far from accurate, in my case. But since I’m horny and ready for sex most of the time, it’s largely irrelevant. In particular, if I’m with a woman who assumes this about me, I’m going to feel that I don’t need to evidence it, it’s a given. So the initiative is clearly in her court. We’re waiting for her to be horny and ready for sex.
Well, gee, that’s about how it makes me feel too.
Yeah, but I’m guessing you didn’t grow up with the idea that any guy who isn’t ass-ugly automatically turns women on just by being in the room. You probably don’t feel defective or emasculated by having to ask. Fair or not, a lot of women feel like a “real” woman could turn her man on and wouldn’t have to ask for a pity fuck. Even when we realize it’s irrational and silly, it’s still the way we feel, and it can make us upset and/or hostile.
Umm … what?
I’m not concerned about pity sex, or pretty sex, or sex in the Pit. I just want the communication lines repaired a bit.
If many women think “My head is killing me” is a sure-fire way to turn on a man, our species is doomed.
No, but pointing and laughing kinda makes me feel inadequate.
CrazyCatLady:
[QUOTE]
Yeah, but I’m guessing you didn’t grow up with the idea that any guy who isn’t ass-ugly automatically turns women on just by being in the room. You probably don’t feel defective or emasculated by having to ask. Fair or not, a lot of women feel like a “real” woman could turn her man on and wouldn’t have to ask for a pity fuck. Even when we realize it’s irrational and silly, it’s still the way we feel, and it can make us upset and/or hostile.
[QUOTE]
Well, I have no reason or excuse, but emotionally and psychologically I was totally unprepared to have to ask for it, let alone ask for it from people who had been pestered on the general subject often enough to be irritable and blunt in their rejection. Yes, I feel defective (rationally or not) and yes it makes me upset and hostile. Less so now that I’m a middle-aged fellow with dwindling hormones so I just don’t care quite as much. I just don’t express sexual interest except within a relationship*, and not even there unless there’s a lot of reciprocity.
I was going to make the case that women aren’t the only ones who can feel this way (right or not), but AHunter3 did a fine job of it.
I’ll only add that placing all the burden for initiating sex on the man in a relationship is every bit as unfair as placing it completely on the woman (For what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone’s espousing either extreme). Any relationship, including a sexual one, has to be a mutual effort.
My wife and I had a conversation like this, many years ago. A few years after we were married, she said that she preferred it when I initiated sex. She cited many of the reasons you mention, CCC, and I do agree that they are valid reasons. However, my sex drive was already quite high, and I felt like I initiated sex often, but was rejected often. This was also a valid point.
To be frank, I sometimes felt like I was begging for sex (I wasn’t, but this was how I felt, right or wrong), and she wasn’t interested (she was, but our timing was off).
We both had a valid perspective, and we both had some issues to deal with. Neither of us were right or wrong. The good news is, we talked about it (and found that talking about sex can be a wooonderful aphrodisiac), and our sex has been steadily improving ever since. Sometimes she initiates, and sometimes I do, but the real point here is that we’ve established good lines of communication so that neither of us has to feel neglected.
I think the same would do Sauron and his SO a world of good. I don’t know if we established this yet, but does Sauron feel like he already does initiate intimacy often? How often is he rejected?
Anyway, my point this whole time has been that communication in any relationship, even about sex, should be shared equally. One person can’t establish their own rules independently and expect the other to abide by them. They set their rules, and then they work with them. Most importantly, they communicate often and clearly. That’s the best way to make sure what you want happens: communicate it.
To CanvasShoes:
I don’t think anyone, myself included, was trying to make women feel wrong for wanting romance or to be “taken.” However, women need to be equally aware that not all guys’ fantasies are always about being the agressor. Sometimes, we like romance too. Sometimes, we like a woman who’s not afraid to show us what we want. Speaking only for myself, I’m somewhat of a “switch-hitter” in this respect. Sometimes I like to take, and sometimes I like to be taken. Still other times, neither suits my mood. My wife and I have gotten remarkably good at reading one another, but also at sending the right signals.
The point here is, of course women aren’t wrong for wanting romance sometimes, and I never said they were. However, sometimes men want it too. The tricky part is getting those moods to coincide conveniently. 
No, I don’t think anyone in this thread was saying that, but it’s frequently bandied about in common jokes, culture etc, You know, the little woman is so hard to understand? blah blah blah.
And there were a few comments, in just a few posts that sort of mildly “skimmed” the line, and weren’t really taking into consideration that our “hinting around” wasn’t something we were doing because we were poor communicators, but because we were trying to elicit a certain response.
For instance, that of the man making the move, without having to ASK for it. And there were a few (though very mild) comments about how that’s not fair, etc.
You’re absolutely right, all of you who said that communication was key.
(gosh darn it all to thunderation ANYHOW!!!, I love chatting and all, but sometimes it’s terribly difficult to get just the right meaning out in plain old black and white 
).
I guess the point that CCL and I were trying to make, (and sorry, we didn’t mean to exclude the more romantic of the guys here), was that sometimes you want to BE romanced without having to say a word, and not be thought of as being “high maintenance” or difficult to understand etc, because of it.
And yeah, I guess at those times, a woman feels “unfeminine” if she has to ask, and then he complies, when what she really wanted was for him to “just know”.
Also, I know what you mean about getting rejected, I’m the “hot to trot” one in my relationship.
To make matters worse, I’m also the shy one, and my bf is a “don’t beat around the bush, just SAY it” type, but, to top it ALL of he’s lately been disinterested.
And Oh GrrrrrRRRR. First I have to work my courage up to “ask him properly” so that he doesn’t get aggravated at me for “beating around the bush” or “hinting” only to get turned DOWN!
So, I guess, even though I agree that Sauron was more “in the right” so to speak, I am kindof sensitive to his wife’s side right now. Hence my comments, (maybe some guy here will read CCL and my comment, put them into effect, and make HIS wife a happy girl, so even if I can’t be, lol, I can live vicariously!!).
Well, all this talk about sex is making me horny.
I’d love to do just that (I’m in a “take” mood right now, after all this), but unfortunately my wife is still healing from an operation and most of the fun stuff is off-limits right now. To make it worse, we always seem to be at our horniest when we aren’t allowed to have sex. Dammit!
sigh I guess I’ll just have to be creative…
Ooooh, And I guess (being as it’s a friday night), I’ll have to be “brave” again:D
And I still, at the age of 52, dream about making the World Series winning catch of a Barry Bond’s drive with the bases loaded that is 3 feet over the fence and I leap and contort my body pulling it down while the home crowd and hundreds of millions of TV viewers wait to see if i did in fact catch the ball. As I lay on the ground dazed, I slowly hold up my glove showing that I did indeed MADE THE CATCH that wins the World Series.
But in my case, I know THAT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. And I accept the fact that it won’t. And I don’t make people crazy with this fantasy.
I love women but uh…grow up.
We men are fucked up in many ways but most of us don’t deliberately try to send our mates to the insane asylum with our mixed messages.
Sure , ask a woman what the heck she’s talking about? Ok, here I’ll give it a try:
“What the heck are you talking about?”
“WELL IF YOU HAVE TO ASK…YOU JUST WOULDN’T UNDERSTAND. MEN!!”
And believe it or not, my wacky ex-(thank you GOD) wife are still friends.
Sauron, your wife was wrong. Period.
SHE OWES YOU AN APOLOGY.
Now…go apologize to her.
As a lifelong, golDURNED female-type person myown self, exactly how did this morph into your (singular) problem, Sauron, instead of yours (plural)? You two are married: takes two to tango, much less horizontal hula; two-shall-be-as-one, etc, through mortgages, kids and the IRS; till death do you part, quoth the raven.
Why in the wide, wide world of indoor sports should the “simple”, splendid perk of getting laid turn into a mine field? Contrary to pop illusions, women, just half of humanity already, really lack any plan or intent to reduce their male counterparts to gibbering frustration. It’s mutual, pal, it’s very mutual.
::queasily dons the Dr. Phil. schtick::
You have a mouth, don’t you? So use it already. (NOT what you’re thinking; not yet, so just hoist yer tongue back past yer tonsils for the moment.) This is your life partner. You’ve both gotten yourselves into a fine muddle, but sit both of you down to just really talk to each other for a change. You’re upset, she’s upset: it’s a mess. So cut through the bull, already.
Could be what she’s been trying to get across is that stress has been eating her alive. Could be what she needs is finally room to cut loose–cuss, punch pillows, rant-- then jump your bones like a rabid mink. Could be anything. Could take anything from BandAids to candlelight. How the hell would I know? I’m pixels on a screen, fercryininbeer, not Dr. Phil!*
YOU married the woman, you have half interest, so go sit your (plural) miserable selves down and figure out what went hinky.
THEN do whatever oral or related things that might float yer mutual boat.
Veb
[sub]* Who’s seen Dr. Phil exactly once, but envied his chutpah and income. What a gig.[/sub]
Sex cures my headaches.
Sauron, you have more of a chance of reasoning with
Sadam AND that North Korean freak than with your wife.
Just go apologize to her. Then apologize some more. And some more.
Women DON’T play fair. But I still love most of them.
Oh, did I mention:
WOMEN DON’T PLAY FAIR.
Yeah, because there’s nothing more appealing and cherished than a man who apologizes for every little thing and who makes unfavorable generalizations about the opposite sex.
Yay! I agree.
You’re wife sounds a bit like me Sauron with respect to communicating…I say often “can we not speak in riddles here? What are you saying.” Or some such thing.
A year or so ago we had this problem…hubby would ask me after dinner, or while watching TV or getting ready for bed “are you tired? You look tired.” And I was tired usually. Exhausted. Maybe I had a headache sometimes too - that’s never been code in this house though for leave me alone, sex is good for headaches imo. His and mine. Anyway, at this particular time I’d go upstairs smiling, thinking what a dear sweet guy he was for noticing how tired I was and being concerned about it.
A few weeks later I’ve decided that I’m going upstairs by myself a lot…don’t I get a conjugal visit at least once a week or something? What happened…he replies: “well you always tell me that you’re tired.”
OOOooooh…so that’s it. :mad: :mad: The result of that battle still lingers…there’ll probably never be another instance of something I say being misinterpreted, and it’ll be a while before he asks about my health or general welfare without me wanting to say “do you really want to know, or are you asking for something else.” I’m serious, I was never so pissed at him. Extend to me the courtesy of believing that when I say I’m tired I mean that I’m tired and that’s pretty much it, you know? So that’s my two cents…you already know that your wife doesn’t abide by the 1950 code of proper wife speech and conduct; she probably means she has a headache and that’s it.
Well, why don’t you say “Yeah I’m tired , but not too tired to…”
(you fill in the blanks)
He’d probably be carrying you up the stairs.
I am very very sorry, Audrey.
(see, they don’t play fair)
She’s just mad cause you cracked the code…
That’s the thing I was so mad about…I had no idea that I was answering a question. I dunno, you get busy, buried under work and stuff and you miss those things.
He says "You look beat. Tired today?"
He’s thinking: Are we having sex tonight?
I’m thinking: he’s concerned. I appreciate that.
so…
I answer: **“yes, I’m kinda tired. I’m going to bed.” **
I’m thinking: …and maybe you’ll join me. That would be nice.
He’s thinking: she said yes. That means “no.” Might as well stay here with the PS2…
a week later now.
He says "you’ve been tired an awful lot lately. Everything OK?"
He’s thinking: …cuz it’s not ok here. Definitely not.
I’m thinking: Come to think of it I have been awfully tired lately…I love this guy!
so…
I answer: "Yep, everything’s fine, maybe I’ll turn in a little early tonight."
I’m thinking: And maybe you’ll join me. You know, if the PS2 game isn’t too distracting…
He’s thinking: Everything’s fine? Is she nuts?
Et cetera. So, whatever that is, we don’t do it anymore. Bad. Very bad.
So if he comes upstairs and expresses that he wants to have sex, you get pissed because THAT IS ALL HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, HE WASN’T REALLY INTERESTED IN YOUR WELL BEING AFTER ALL.
If he stays downstairs looking at porn errrrrrrrr working on the PS2 then HE DOESN’T DESIRE YOU.
I used to say to my wife “just write me a script and I’ll read from it, anything you want me to say.”
She actually thought that was funny.I thought she would blow up at me.
Women…You can’t live WITH them. And you can’t live WITH them.
ps Tee, wanna fool around?
pps why do husbands usually die before their wives?
because they WANT to.