Well, I still feel the same way I expressed in my first response, that you are blowing this up into a far bigger deal than it was. The guy was a jerk. A creep. You invited him into your apartment, and even tho you feel creeped out - NOTHING ALL THAT BAD HAPPENED.
As ugly as you may think it sounds, if you move about society as a single young woman, it is extremely likely that at least every once in a while you will run ito a jerk and a creep. And it is a good idea to figure out how you are going to deal with that when (not if) it happens. Same way I guarantee a single guy is going to eventually run across a psychotic bitch. Figure out how to avoid or deal with them, but their mere existence is not the end of the world.
So no, I’m not convinced you did anything terribly wrong or should have done anything terribly different. But you are the one who is suggesting this was some big deal. Learn from it and get over it.
I don’t think Jodi is being overly harsh. Instead I interpret her as indicating her preference that people accept responsibility for their actions. And perhaps reflecting her experiences with others of our species over more than 2 decades. And I agree with her.
I also interpret **Jodi’s **remarks and expressing confidence in **Tracy’s **ability to become a stronger, more safe aware person so that these things don’t happen to her in the future. That’s a good thing and the truth.
But the question is: Is that defensible? That may in fact have been her rationale – I’m perfectly willing to believe it was – but even she sees the next day that it wasn’t the smart thing to do. She knows she made errors in judgment, and I’m honest to God not trying to beat her up, it’s just that (1) I don’t really think those errors are excusable, so I don’t know why she would try to excuse them and (2) I don’t agree that this guy was a complete horror show stalker to her, and I don’t think she needs to cast him that way in order to be equally disturbed by how the evening went. Frankly, I imagine the guy would be completely flabbergasted to hear she considers him a stalker. A oily jerk, sure, but a stalker? No.
But surely you see that this is an extremely dangerous way to deal with near-strangers. That’s how you end up dead in a corn field, to be blunt about it. A woman MUST know how to assert herself and how to make choices to keep herself safe, or she has no business going out. ANYBODY might be “assertive;” LOTS of guys are if they think there’s a chance they might get laid. And the vast majority of them will back off when they find they’re striking out, but what if the one that won’t is the one you let in your apartment? If she can’t effectively make these sorts of choices due to some theoretical abused past, then it is in her best interest to not place herself in ANY position where a man might put ANY pressure on her. I think she’s stronger than that, though I might be wrong.
Once you are an adult, no one else will take responsibility for your personal safety. You must do it yourself. If you don’t have the skills, be they physical, social, or emotional, then you need to learn them before you venture out on pub-closing evenings. It’s that simple. I don’t think she’s a floozy, or a moron, or a meek little abusve victim, or anything other than a naive girl. Lots of women have been in the exact same position: “Holy shit, how do I get this loser out of my house???” When the social awkwardness of it is compounded by the dawning fear that you may not even be personally safe – that’s a long, harsh night, I’ll tell you. Not all of life’s lessons are easy ones.
I agree in principle but disagree in this particular case.
I think every guy has, on occasion, accidentally found himself alone with a woman in a car or her apt or whatever. Maybe he engineered the scenario in advance, but I could also believe he didn’t. Some men, in that situation, might hope for a little action and push the envelope a little. But as far as I can tell he didn’t touch her or anything.
The “creep” (and I’m not sure he is) gave others a ride home first. She said he was a “friend of a friend” so his identity is known, he’s apparently a regular around town, etc. Those who murder women and dump them in cornfields want to remain anonymous…yes, he could have done more than he did but the police would have known exactly whom to find.
A long time ago, I had a professor whom I considered abusive to students. I talked to classmates, to the department head, etc. One of the women in class said to me, later, “It just didn’t register with me because I was raised in an abusive home. My father used to talk to us like that and I just fell back into that mode.”
Maybe the OP is like that. And maybe 99% of the women to whom he talks like that won’t give him the time of day so when she allowed him in, he mistook it for a green light. In any event, she doesn’t have to acknowledge his existence further.
Lesson learned, and don’t do it again OP. But don’t conclude that he was Jack the Ripper, either.
I don’t want to add to any pile-on you may perceive about your decisions, but going out for an evening of drinking, it is your responsibility to keep yourself safe from the time you leave your house until the time you get back in. That includes a safe ride out and in again. It is a very sad fact that young women can’t just leave the house all carefree and “I’ll just see where the night takes me,” but that’s the way it is. How were you planning on getting home before Mr. Wonderful offered the ride?
My first reaction to this thread was that definitely you are overreacting. There may be any number of reasons for this and I don’t think it implies anything bad about you. I understand the fear – the very literal fear – of saying no. I’ve dealt with that all my life. And it put me in some bad situations–dating guys I didn’t want to date, doing things I didn’t want to do. I don’t like causing scenes or stirring up trouble, and I am very literally afraid of what might happen if I say no. If I don’t say anything, then I can at least sort of pretend I have some control over the situation.
Weirdly enough, your story reminds me of an experience I had in college, with a guy who used to drop by my dorm. One night he came by to chat, and we ended up talking until three in the morning, which was okay that one time, but I didn’t really know him all that well. He kept dropping by and inviting himself in and sitting down on the bed beside me. He would write personal messages on my dry-erase board–one I remember very vividly: ‘‘I think I’m loosing (sic) my mind.’’ He didn’t seem to mean any harm, but it made me very uncomfortable, to the point that I began to avoid him at all costs.
He didn’t know how uncomfortable he was making me. He never would have found out if one of my dorm-mates hadn’t opened her big mouth and told him that he wasn’t respectful of others’ personal space. He wrote me an e-mail apologizing profusely for any unintentional discomfort he may have caused, which made me sit down and really examine whether I was responding to him or whether my problem was my inability to protect my own space.
Seven years later, that creepy stalker guy is now sitting ten feet away from me coding data for a research project. I was never quite able to get rid of him. He’s my husband. No way in hell I ever would have predicted that.
The above anecdote indicates my first hint that something wasn’t functional with the way I perceived others’ behavior. The second hint happened years later, when said husband and I lived in a nice apartment and I was home alone most of the day. A man in our complex became very friendly with my husband while I was abroad. Then he became very friendly with me, offering to do all sorts of favors. I just wanted a friend, but it wasn’t until I was actually alone in my apartment with him that I realized he was hardcore hitting on me. And what’s worse, I was absolutely terrified he was going to make a move.
This guy was massive–over six feet tall, extremely ripped, and for some reason my dumb ass had invited him inside despite some fairly clear warning signals that he was interested. I was absolutely terrified into paralysis – I posted a thread on the Dope about it because I had no idea what to do. I didn’t get that I could say no, until the Dopers on this board slapped me with a few wet trout. I think it might benefit you to read that thread because it could help you see your situation more objectively.
What ended up happening is my husband confronted him. He denied he’d been hitting on me, even told his wife about it to try to put a good face on it, and overall was neither terrifying nor assholish in his reaction. He never bothered me again.
While there’s nothing inherently wrong about feeling uncomfortable in your situation, it may indicate more about you than the actual person you think is creepy. For me, my signals were way, way off for the first guy, and the second guy could have been dealt with by not ever letting him inside my house. The bottom line is nobody is going to stand up for you. I know how hard it is–it’s still hard, and sometimes I still fail. But we have to keep telling ourselves niblet_head’s gorgeous mantra:
That’s a sweet story, olivesmarch. Your words are relevant to a lot of people. I know I’ve been in situations where I felt weird about saying no. It’s always good to be reminded that we need to assert our boundaries when we feel creeped out.
Ugh. I was naive enough to end up with a guy in my home who I didn’t want there when I was just fresh out of living with my parents. It was all stupidity on my part, and taking advantage on his part. The day after he’d been in the house, that guy wouldn’t stop calling, even though I wouldn’t talk to him on the phone - there was a bit of an incident of several repeat calls in a row and I was astonished and grateful (and totally embarrassed) when my male roommate with the capacity for sounding threatening took the last of the calls and told the guy in no uncertain terms that he should not contact me again.
I was raised to fight my own battles, but apparently my stupid acquiescence that got me into the mess in the first place meant that my creepy guy didn’t take my refusal to have anything to do with him afterwards seriously. I don’t remember exactly what he said to my roommate that triggered the warning off, only that it was along the lines of we were meant to be together and he couldn’t forget me and leave me alone.
I hope your creepy guy stays at the merely slightly creepy level and doesn’t escalate to stalkerishness. I learned my lesson from that experience… but just because I made some very poor decisions didn’t mean it wasn’t frightening. Part of my mistake was being overconfident in the concept that no meant no and that I could take risks because I did know what my limits were and felt confident being assertive… but … er… yeah. Everything I knew about men and relationships was academic, and I’m afraid he was of the school of thought that ‘no’ meant ‘try harder’.
and it wouldn’t be, but I don’t think the ugly guy or the old guy would get called a stalker if he just asked once and was turned down and that was the end of it.
Sorry. The reason I keep imagining details that you didn’t specify is because I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve called an older or unattractive guy “creepy” or “a stalker” for asking me out once, then taking “No” for an answer. It probably does happen, but even in the OP where “stalker” is an overreaction, the guy didn’t behave like your hypothetical guy - he ignored the signals from her, invaded her personal space and made her uncomfortable. That’s creepy behaviour even from Keanu Reeves, let alone from a guy she was not attracted to.
I get your point, but I get hers too. It can be very creepy to be hit on by someone you hadn’t thought of in a romantic sense because they are outside the age range you picture yourself with. Could you imagine yourself being uncomfortable if a woman 20+ years older than you hit on you in a serious manner? 30+? I’m not sure where your upper limits kick in but there must be a cut off point, right? It may not be a specific date or year, but there are women out there who you must assume are too old for you without thinking about it, and who would shock or surprise you if they made moves on you… right? Nana’s friend Agnes? Obviously the 40-odd year old man in the OP isn’t ancient like Agnes, but if you hadn’t thought of being with someone born in the same decade as your parents, then you probably hadn’t thought of this person as a potentially-datable man, and to discover that he -had- been thinking of you that way is equally as jarring as if he was Agnes. In my experience, anyway.
There’s a bouncer at the bar I used to go to who thought I was 19 when he first hit on me (I’m in my thirties, but apparently I look younger, and this guy thought I was younger still). He’s 56, and looks older. I found that pretty creepy. Why? Well, a few reasons. He tells me his daughter is 38… call me ageist, but I found it surprising to be hit on by a guy who is both old enough to potentially have a granddaughter my age (or at least the age he thought I was), and who is older than my parents. (… and of course there’s more to the story than just his age, but it was one element of the whole ooky situation). If I met a 19 year old woman who’d jump at seeing a 56 year old, overweight, grey-haired bouncer who has children twice her age, I’d suspect her of having issues with her father. If I were to try to imagine myself in the same situation in reverse… well , I don’t see myself having anything in common with a 19 year old man now, with only a 13 year or so age difference, and I absolutely cannot picture myself hitting on guys in their late teens when I’m in my mid-50’s.
So yeah, please forgive me for muddling your hypothetical with real life experiences, but I still say that a guy hitting on a girl who is responding to him is less creepy than a guy hitting on a girl who is not responding to him, which is how I picture the situation playing out if she considers Guy 1 to be attractive and age appropriate, and Guy 2 to be ugly and/or too old. But that doesn’t mean that Guy 2 would be called creepy just for asking once, unless there were other things going on too that Guy 1 wasn’t up against.
You cannot logically use the fact that creepy ugly guy did A,B,C as proof that he is creepy or stalkerish.
If you want to wave your hands around and claim creepiness on some vague intuition or something, thats perfectly valid. We all do that at some level or another.
Oh wait, he’s not reading my signals. Uhhh, probably, but then again maybe your signals need some work? And that just makes him determined or clueness at worst.
But, if A,B,C is good enough for the goose, its damn good enough the gander as well.
What is keeping you from meeting beautiful women? Click here to find out…
I always knew one day the Matrix would evolve its creepy old man detection filters enough to find me out
Of course, in the picture, the guy standing next to girl looks decidedly non old and non creepy so I am dubious as to the effectiveness of their product…
How old is the OP? I have no problem with older guys myself, but if she’s hit her early 20s and this is her first time living on her own, she’s slowly making the transition from teen to adult. This includes having guys hit on her who, only years earlier, would have been on their way to committing a crime. I support statutory rape laws and am ready and willing to judge older people who go after teens, but if you’ve been taught something is illegal and creepy one day and not the next (like, say, your 18th birthday), it’s not as if your brain can adjust overnight.
It was not: “Can I come in?” in was: “I need to pee, can I use your toilet?”
Important but subtle distinction: The former is requesting an invitation. The latter is a request for help.
It appeals to your sense of compassion and human decency. That’s why it’s an attractive target to douchebags like Mandolin Dick. It can be exploited to create conflicting feelings, and sometimes that little moment of confusion is all that’s needed for a guy to take advantage.
If Mandolin Dick had asked: “Can I come in?” it would be way too easy for Tracy to say, “No. Have a good night.”
But asking for a little help… and help that requires so little effort… and haven’t we all been in that awful situation where we really had to go but there was no toilet…? ::big sad Bambi eyes::
That’s how the manipulation works. It preys upon that little flash of guilt you get. Totally passive-aggressive bullshit. If Mandolin Dick had asked to come in, he would be “too forward” but relatively innocent, but the fact that he came up with an excuse to weasel his way in shows that he’s a douchebag. Not a stalker, but definitely a dooooouche.
My first reaction after reading the subject line then the post was
What judgement errors?
What stalking?
Tracy didn’t sleep with the guy and they didn’t even make-out or anything. And he drove her home…she didn’t get into a van with him to drive to a deserted area to take drugs like I once did at her age. And even though she got the a note at home he hasn’t been following her, I bet she hasn’t had to approach her home once from the wrong direction just to make she he wasn’t hanging out waiting for her and he hasn’t been constantly stopping by with little gifts…when that happened to me my roommate thought the guy was cute and gave me crap for pretending not to be home.
I do understand the uneasy feeling. I think it can be difficult for young women when they realize that men that they find absolutely repulsive have been having sexual fantasies about them. Getting used to that is just a part of growing up because pretty much ALL hetero men have fantasies, some more fleeting than others, about almost every female they meet and even more so with the young and pretty ones. I don’t think the guy ever posed a danger but I think Tracy was sensitive enough to realize she had pushed the guy’s fantasy button and that gave her the skeevy vibe.
So, yeah, be more careful but don’t think of it as some huge defining mistake. When I was in my early twenties I attended parties almost every weekend with co-workers and the guys I worked with always insisted that one of them saw me al the way home to my door…we were in the city and all using mass transit and yes, they insisted on taking the train with me, getting off at my stop and walking me to the door. And sometimes they did come up to use the bathroom and this being NYC ( with no public restrooms or bushes ) I never refused. And some of them did hit on me a little but I knew how to say no and they knew how to hear it and it was just never a big deal.
So, Tracy…my advice is to stop dwelling on it and just say no if he asks you out again.
Your words are relevant to a lot of people. I know I’ve been in situations where I felt weird about saying no. It’s always good to be reminded that we need to assert our boundaries when we feel creeped out.