I didn’t mean to imply that I’m getting some back-alley psychotherapy. The clinic I go to is staffed by students with master’s degrees and who are supervised by clinical psychologists. All sessions are taped and reviewed by the therapist’s supervisor (at least, that’s what the release form says). Of course, they could be lying.
Plus there is the fact that all of these students are doctoral students too, so we have something in common to start with. I tried therapy with a professional counselor before, and that didn’t work, because she and I had no common frame of reference. Plus, at $35 per visit (copay), I couldn’t keep going week after week, or else I’d be depressed and poor(er).
But are you on therapist two or three? You can’t get any kind of rapport if they keep moving you from person to person…or you have to accomplish your task before Spring Break, finals, graduation, etc.
The move from Therapist 1 to Therapist 2 was voluntary. The move to the current one was not; Therapist 2 was reassigned or something, I never was completely clear. But I had been with her over a year.
That doesn’t sound a lot like CBT to me… maybe interpersonal therapy?
If you’re doing CBT, one of the first things you should get is a chart where you record automatic thoughts, emotions and feelings, including a rank of how strongly you feel they are true. You would then identify the cognitive distortions and come up with alternative ways of thinking, and finally re-rate the old cognitive distortions to see if you find them less true. You might also rank your mood before and after you do a certain activity, and then try to replace the low-mood activities with ones that make you feel better. This isn’t something that requires a therapist; anyone can do it. Just take out a pencil and notebook and get to work.
For serious depression like yours I’d honestly recommend behavioral activation. There’s an excellent workbook–really the thing that jumpstarted my recovery, called Overcoming Depression One Step at a Time. You don’t have to believe in it to work, you don’t even have to want to change, all you have to do is commit to doing it. If you PM me your address I will mail you a copy at no expense. I am 100% serious about this offer, that’s how convinced I am this book can help you.
(I know how this is done because my husband is a Ph.D. student in clinical psychology with a specialization in CBT. Most people when they whine about their feelings in front of their spouse get a ‘‘there, there.’’ Not me. I get worksheets, charts and behavioral exercises and he won’t let me go until I’ve identified and refuted my cognitive distortions. I totally got him back the other day when he was depressed and anxious about graduate school – made him sit there filling out his own charts and gave him a taste of his own medicine, ha!)
I guess a major point I wanted to make is that for better or for worse, these are the cards you’ve been dealt. Sometimes the greatest peace can come from just accepting that. We have a tendency to want to run in the other direction every time we have a negative feeling, but that usually only intensifies the feeling and makes it more likely to occur in the long-run. If we can just extend a little compassion to ourselves wherever we are in the moment, say, ‘‘yeah, I’m depressed and it sucks, but it is what it is and I’m not going to abandon myself right now’’ then the pain does become less intense.
If it helps, think of it like any other chronic illness for which you would not blame yourself for suffering. You’re going to do what you can to ease the pain, but on a certain level you’re better off accepting that this isn’t something going away overnight. It’s weird, but ideally you’ll find a way to be genuinely happy and depressed at the same time. I know it’s possible because I’ve done it.
I’m always glad to see you in threads discussing CBT, olives. I know it works; it worked for me, it works for people in my support group, but it can be hard to get across to people how something so simple can be so effective. (Note to statsman: I said “simple,” not “easy.” ) Part of what I like about CBT is that it deals with you and your life, right here and now. Sure, you can write letters to people in your life or your past that you have issues with, but there comes a point when you say, “You know what? I’m just not going to waste any more time worrying over all that old shit.”
I have no experience whatsoever with clinical depression, so I cannot even imagine what the OP is going through…
But, like the OP, I hate to exercise so I can address that part of the OP’s issue.
So to get my body moving and burning calories, I decided I needed to trick myself into exercising. That way, I didn’t mind that I was exhausted, hot, and sweaty, or that my body ached.
So I first signed up to play on a local Roller Hockey league. It was painful and tiring, but I was focused on playing the game, so getting all hot and sweaty didn’t matter to me, and I got my exercise. I did this for 2 years, then decided to get back into martial arts. I now work out at my Tang Soo Do club three times per week. It is a tough work out, but I thoroughly enjoy it and don’t mind getting all sweaty and tired… PLUS I am learning self defense as well. The exercise is simply a bonus
So to address the OP, I know you are going through a lot right now, but perhaps finding a hobby that forces you to be active could be a way to go.
I also wanted to respond to this part. I hate being hot and exhausted during exercise too, but there are some things I like to do. I love swimming - I can’t get sweaty, and if I do breast stroke, I can swim for hours breathing harder than normal but not getting totally exhausted. It may be that the level of exercise the OP is doing is too high. It might be a good idea to try different activities, or to step it down a notch until you feel a comfortable level of tiredness after exercise.
The other thing I wanted to mention about exercise is the time of day. I am not a morning exercise person, I absolutely hate it, but exercise in the evening is much better for me. Maybe trying different times of day for exercise might help.
Finally, I just wanted to let you know that you’re not the only one who’s going through this, statsman. I’m writing up my thesis right now, and it absolutely sucks. 12-hour days for weeks now, and it’ll still be another few weeks before I can go back to a normal work schedule. I can barely think straight half the time, I’m so panicked with the pressure of finishing on time. So I just wanted to let you know that there are others going through the same things you are with the PhD program, you are not alone. Some stages of the PhD just universally suck. If you really want the PhD though, it’ll be worth it to go through the whole ordeal. And don’t feel ashamed about going to a community college to teach afterward. In my field, the money is getting tighter and competition was absolutely fierce this year for post-docs, to the point where education, community college or otherwise, was a reasonable alternative. I understand feeling the pressure from your professors to go into academia, I felt the same thing, but in the end it’s your life you’re living. You have to make the choice that’s right for you. I also have your fears that I only enjoy things that I don’t have to do, but I think that’s just fear speaking, fear of leaving the rigid academic track.
I realize now that I’m rambling…so back to my thesis. Good luck!
Twelve hours a day in front of a computer typing a thesis? Here’s some good news for you: You are 100% better at life than I am. I haven’t worked 12 hours straight. I’ve done reading, some coding, and not much writing yet. God, I"m scared to death! Writing is difficult for me, an anxiety trigger. I’m scared that no matter how careful I am, I’ll plagiarize, or completely misinterpret the author and look like a fool. When I don’t have to cite anything, I don’t get as anxious, but it’s still there. I’ve managed to cope so far (my master’s degree had no thesis option), but I"m afraid my fears will catch up to me.
Well, tomorrow is the appointment with the new psychiatrist. I don’t pray, but I’m really hoping that she’ll be better than the last one.
Hmm, maybe I didn’t help… To be fair, the reason I’m working 12 hours a day right now is because I didn’t start writing early enough. That’s my fault for not standing up to my advisor, who kept wanting me to write proposals when I should have been writing my thesis (grrr). If you leave yourself more than three months to write 200+ pages, you should be in much better shape than I am in right now!
The introduction and background I actually feel confident about because I’m summarizing other people’s work. As long as you cite the paper you’re discussing, there’s no need to fear plagiarizing. It’s my own results that I’m unsure of - if you feel confident about your research, that’s great! As far as being scared of the writing, if you sit down and just do an hour or two each day, you’ll eventually get through it, it just takes time that’s all. Once you have an outline, set a small goal for yourself (a page per day for example) and you’ll find that the writing gets a lot easier.
Anyway, sorry if my post sounded scary, I was just trying to say that I’m there with you, plugging away at something I’m not sure about, but eventually we’ll both get through it. Let us know how it goes tomorrow!
You’ve described my attitude toward therapy to a tee - but only until my third visit. That was when I told my therapist why I thought her suggestions wouldn’t work and she was able to refute every one of my challenges.
I too thought I had a problem that could not be overcome. And I explained why I thought it could not be overcome and then my therapist made me realized that my explanation was complete BS.
Without knowing what your problems are exactly I can’t convince you that some solutions will work. My suggestion is to challenge your therapist with your negative thoughts about the process and not to keep them to yourself thinking that you are smart enough to figure everything out on your own.
I think this is something you keep doing - doubting therapeutic methods and not expressing your doubts to your therapist - because you did the same thing in your last thread and I gave you the same advice.
You’re a doctoral student. A smart guy. You’ve explained your thought processes very eloquently. There is no reason to think your problems can’t be dealt with. The worst thing that can happen if you challenge your therapist is that she’ll admit you’re right and then you’ll have to find another one.
Experience suggests that thesis writing can bring out depression and anxiety even in people who are reasonably resistant. Although there may be deep-seated reasons for why you are feeling the way you are now, the critical one may be simply that your circumstances are stressful and unpleasant. You don’t necessarily have to solve the larger problems; you may only have to come up with practical solutions that let you move on to the next thing. This isn’t to say that dealing with any underlying problems is a bad idea–it’s a good idea. But a thesis is, by itself, a bit of a crisis, and your main priority has to be to get through that. Refinements can come later.
I’m not going to try to improve on some of what you’ve been told about therapy. I do, however, have a couple of what I hope are practical suggestions. Break the work you need to get done up into the smallest possible pieces. Try exercise, and if that doesn’t work, try exercising harder. I never got any anti-anxiety benefits out of exercise until I tried something where I sweated and panted for 50 minutes at a time. Exercise a well documented antidepressant, and, even if it isn’t a magic bullet, you’ll be getting fit.
People will tell you that you have a choice stop worrying, that you have the power to do this or that, and, if your mind is in full depression mode, it will sound like a condemnation of your lack of will-power. Occasionally it is, but anyone who means it that way is an idiot. Any decent person who tells you this is just trying to explain that there are known paths out.
Ah, so I see I wasn’t deliberately ignoring your advice, though!
I guess what I’m afraid of in speaking up is the therapist saying, “Fine. You think you’re so smart, you go help yourself and stop wasting our time.”
**starryspice, **the details you included make me feel a little better, but I still worry about plagiarism. I make note of important ideas using the note taking function in Zotero (basically, a free version of EndNote available as a plugin for Firefox). But I don’t trust myself when I come back to those notes because there have been instances where I’ve done that and seen that I had misread something, and took notes on it!:smack: Now I feel as if I have to go back and skim over everything I want to cite just to make sure.
What is your field, if you don’t mind my asking? What does your outline look like? Does it have citations by every statement? How do you remember all the minute details in all of the papers?
My problem is that I think I would obsess over the structure of the outline and getting it just right and be mentally exhausted before I even started writing.
I started a thread a while ago about exercising–that I must be “doing it wrong” because whenever I do it, I feel more anxious and depressed the entire time. I’ve been exercising 3 times a week since about February. I’ve gained some muscle and lost weight, but it is torture the entire time. I tried a strength class once, and nearly vomited from exertion. I hate the smell of the gym; it’s almost nauseating how much Axe bodyspray I can smell. I sometimes think, “God, I’m going to have to do this for the rest of my life. I’d almost rather die early.” And sometimes, I really believe that.
Maybe new/more/better meds can help with that last part. I hope so, anyway.
What are you doing for exercise? I think trying something more along the vein of running or swimming may help because it takes your mind off thing; sometimes pumping iron isn’t really much of a distraction.
I was reading a book: Getting What You Came For: The Smart Student’s Guide to Earning a Masters or Ph.D. and the first chapter of the book is basically an attempt to talk you out of grad school. There is an interesting statistic contained therein – that one study on Ph.D. candidates found that their self-reported stress-levels were greater than the self-reported stress levels of those who had recently lost a spouse.
At the time, this seemed a bit implausible, but watching my husband go through the process himself (he is a Ph.D. candidate working on his Master’s thesis as we speak) has made me realize this can be real hell. Sr. Olives is the most mentally stable guy I know, but ever since he’s started grad school he’s exhibited symptoms of depression, anxiety, and OCD.
So when you’re feeling bad about yourself, try to keep in mind that this is relatively normal for people going through what you are. There is a very high chance what you’re experiencing could be situational.
What concerns me, though, is your high level of stress toward academia in general – not just the Ph.D. process. For better or worse, this is academia. You can change your attitude toward it, or learn to deal with it in a behaviorally different way, or you could decide it’s not for you, but either way I don’t think you’re going to get out of it by treating it as a temporary problem that is likely to go away. At some point, in order for you to be comfortable and happy doing the work you love, something’s gotta give.
There are many, many ways to exercise that don’t involve a smelly, awful gym. If getting my exercise depended on going to a gym, I’d never exercise, either. I walk, I bike in my basement while watching “Supernatural” on dvd, and I garden. As others have said, there a more ways to skin this cat.
I wouldn’t say that. There’s more to life than working as many hours in a day as you can. I’ve been there, and done that. Then I stopped. And not working 12+ hours a day is much better than working 12+ hours a day. There are things in life I won’t be able to have because there are things I won’t do, but not everything that anybody works really hard to get is worth it.
That’s your career in academia, that’s not you. You could quit trying to get into academia tomorrow, and you’d still be here the next day. You’d even still be more or less the same person as you were before. I did it ten years ago, and I’m still here, and I’m still me. You are not your career.
You’re also making the mistake of thinking that what other people want for you and what is best for you are the same thing. They’re not. Other people want you to take some career path or other for various reasons, some of which have nothing to do with you. They’re not you, and they don’t have some wisdom that makes them better qualified than you are to figure out what’s best for you.
Off topic here, but as if things could not get any worse, I just found out about a payroll error that resulted in the university not deducting the proper amount for insurance for the last several months. We stopped getting paper paycheck stubs and started getting e-statements, but since I’m salaried during the year, I didn’t think to check it. My fault, I know, but I did nothing to cause the error. Bottom line, I now owe $900 in back payments, plus money for the summer. The person I spoke with told me they might be able to work out a payment plan, but they’re not sure yet.
$900 to a doctoral student is big money, YOU FUCKING BITCH (the cunt who called me, all the while seeming to laugh it off as a “whoopsie”, even though she paid lipservice to being sorry). I’m crying right now because I don’t know what else to do. This is what everyone calls “life”? I wish I could just shrug it off like everyone else does, maybe write a little Pit thread about it, and go on and enjoy my lovely, vibrant life of art, music, friends, and family. That’s what everyone else seems to do.
And I just had a psychiatrist visit today that I thought went well. I got my Wellbutrin dose upped to 300 mg per day and was told to go off Lexapro. They really seemed to care. Of course, FUCKING INSURANCE is how I get those meds, and who knows if my prescription coverage is going to get all fucked up now?
I just want to be done with all of this. There are more costs than benefits to life now. My parents and girlfriend don’t know how much I must love them to keep going on …
) Part of what I like about CBT is that it deals with you and your life, right here and now. Sure, you can write letters to people in your life or your past that you have issues with, but there comes a point when you say, “You know what? I’m just not going to waste any more time worrying over all that old shit.”
