I need some advice on women. Actually, thats BS. I need to vent to strangers again

In My Humble Opinion
1

Hmmmm. I’m very loathe to post this for a few reasons

  1. As some of you know a year ago I used to have issues with women. However even though that was a year ago, I know alot of people will read this and assume I still have the same mentality I did back then. I do not, I have changed my outlook pretty effectively and now I’m not in the same place mentally that I was. I am more or less OK with my lack of dating, lack of physical interaction, etc. I don’t feel inferior or like I’m missing something grand anymore, so that is not an issue.

  2. I will have to post some biographical information about myself that I am worried about posting. I’m worried about the idea that someone will recognize me IRL due to it, but what the hell. I really, honestly don’t want or need sympathy. Due to various nutritional and cognitive tools I have found over the years and applied I am pretty stable mentally despite all of this stuff. But the info is necessary if people are going to actually understand the situation and offer advice for it.

  3. Some posters can be pretty rude at times here on SD. I worry about that, but about 90% of the replies will be considerate & constructive so why not go ahead with it.

Ok. I actually enjoy approaching & talking to women. The only problem is that I worry about alienating them after I ask them out and they say no. I can handle rejection from women because of the fact that I am a college educated, college age white male rejection is almost guaranteed as this is a demographic that has alot of problems with women (if you read the posts where people vent about romance & dating here on SD the vast majority of them are started by college educated, college age white men. This can’t be a coincidence anymore than if they were all started by black women in their 40s).

So back to my original point. I don’t mind rejection because I have been rejected but still stayed friendly with women and that was ok. I have also dated and/or had nice conversations with women where we ended up alienated and that sucked really badly. So the rejection per se doesn’t bother me, its the alienation. Its wanting to avoid seeing them, or watching them clench up when they see you.

I figure I’d have to ask out about 200 women to find a woman who is single, willing to date me and has a personality I’m comfortable with. With things the way they are I’ll probably end up alienated from about 70-80 of them in the process, which really isn’t worth it to me. Because its not worth it I don’t really try to meet women anymore. Its not because I ‘lack balls’ and my more neantherthal friends like to say (although I do get butterflies in the stomach sometimes, but by and large this isn’t the problem), its because of this goddamn ‘long range planning’ thing I like to do where I figure that alienating hordes of people isn’t worth a handful of dates.

So I am stuck in this little place right now where I’d like to be meeting people and interacting with them, but I don’t want to alienate alot of people and I have no idea how to do it.

Now onto some of the biographical information. When I was young I was alot more shy than I am now. I am still introverted, but not to the degree I was when I was voted most shy in high school (out of 140 guys, I was voted most shy). So my social skills aren’t stellar, but they are ok now. Another problem as some of you know is that I started developing a mental illness in high school and did some embarassing things during that lil’ period. The illness has been gone for 5 years in case anyone is wondering.

OK. When I went mentally Ill I remember a few things that probably had some role in forming my personality. The reason I am posting these things is not for sympathy, it is because I think people need an understanding of some of the events which have shaped me to understand why I act/react as I do so they can give advice based on that. Giving advice w/o understanding motive is pointless.

In high school there was a girl I fell in love with for no particular reason (puppy love I guess). Oddly she also liked me and flirted with me alot in school a month after I fell in love with her (maybe she sensed how I felt, I don’t know). Anyway, I was too shy to understand she liked me. I remember when I was mentally ill sitting in class and the whole class was talking about me in whispers I heard her say “I used to feel sorry for him” and someone said “didn’t you use to like him” and she said defensively “that was a long time ago”. Which I guess bothers me, I don’t know for sure but maybe on some level your first love defending herself against the idea of liking you may do some mental damage. Again, this isn’t for sympathy and I fully intend to hide this side of my life from ‘polite society’ about what an oddball nut I am/was. You’d never know this stuff to look at me. At least I assume.

Also, during my 10-16 age bracket I had very low self esteem, especially with dating. I figured no woman would want me.

Hmm. Maybe posting this is a bad idea. It probably is.

Alright. back to the mentally ill thing. When I was about 20 this happend which was part of this thread. I never actually did stalk anyone, just came on too strong (I still don’t get how you can be accused of stalking if you write a note to a girl telling her if she isn’t interested you won’t come into where she works anymore). So I have that situation in my past too. I have literally had cops try to arrest me and been publically bullied and insulted for approaching a woman because I had bad social skills at the time.

Another incident was a few months after that. At another library (note to self, avoid women at libraries) I saw a girl staring at me and smiling. I asked her out and she laughed and said ‘no, not interested’. Turns out even though this was a different town she went to high school with me and was actually laughing at me, not flirting. I assume she told alot of people about this and alot of people have made alot of jokes at my expense, laughing about me trying to establish my equality with a woman and all. I remember a week after that someone soaping my car and putting hearts all over it. I remember again in 2002 some jerks from high school harassing me where I worked (I wasn’t going to get in a fight at work or anything, it took me a while to find the job and it turns out the guy lives in nebraska now so its not like I could do anything to him) and one of their girlfriends leans out the window and pretends to flirt with me. So yeah, alot of people know and are disgusted that I tried to establish myself as an equal with them, but its only a small, localized group of a few hundred people. Again, it sounds bad but I am honestly pretty mature mentally, I try to forgive people and think I’ve handled it pretty well. Alot of people over the years have been very nice to me so its not all bad, some people are dicks and some are nurturing.

Alrighty. More bad examples. When the mental illness left (dec of 2000) I decided to start college so I was in a class in fall semester of 2002 and I saw a girl smiling at me. Sooooooooo I figure there is no way in hell this could backfire so I develop a crush on her. At the same time another woman (quite attractive at that) actually was attracted to me. I’ll call the smiling girl girl A and the girl that actually liked me girl B. I had thoughts of going up to girl A and asking for her number but luckily never actually did it. I found out soon that she was from my hometown and this would’ve been a repeat of the situation above, with endless laughter about me trying to establish my equality with the normals. After that I started to think ‘maybe I crave abuse from women’. I looked at this situation and the 2 library situations and figured that was very likely. So I quit worrying about women which is why I never approached girl B. I was afraid on some level I craved abuse and that was all I’d end up getting if I tried anything.

So back to my life and the endless entertainment thereof.

I think on some level I still crave abuse from women. I have had crushes on women but a reasonable deal of the time the women end up being rude either to me or to others, or they are mentally unstable. Maybe its just the law of probability (some of them are bound to be rude and unstable) and I’m seeing what I want to see.

This is also a concern. I fear maybe due to my past that I crave abuse from women on some level or another. Like a woman who keeps picking abusive boyfriends or something like that. So that prevents me from approaching women, even though I just don’t think the same mentality that I had 5 years ago begins to apply to me now. Here in Bloomington that really hasn’t been a problem yet, the majority of women I have crushes on seem kind and I lose interest when they turn out to be rude.

Alright. So you have to take all this into consideration whenever I am interacting with women. You have to consider that I have suffered greatly for living outside the status quo due to a mental illness, that I have alienated alot of people due to said illness, that on some level I think I crave(d) abuse from women, that I have had cops try to arrest me for having poor social skills, also I am somewhat shy so I have that too. I think I may have PTSD or something, maybe when I get rejected and alienate a woman all these things come back to the surface. Maybe a woman getting alieanted is no different than a woman making fun of me with her friends for liking her (which has happened), no different than a PTSD victim who ducks for cover at the sound of a tailpipe going off. Asking him to work in a garage or a firing range could be a really dumb idea. Same with me.

Now keep in mind I’m not an ugly person, probably somewhat above average based on looks based on the kinds of women who have liked me. I have had several women attracted to me that I knew about throughout my life, and most were attractive themselves. So I’m not repulsive or anything. I just figured I’d add that part. :smiley:

So I am back to where I began. Knowing all this does anyone have any Idea how I can approach women without alienating them or without letting the alienation get to me? Is it normal to alienate women after they reject you? Does it bother anyone else? Am I only bothered by it due to my poor past and on some level it reminds me of my past traumas? If so it’d appear I’m almost mentally stuck in this place then.

Should I just stop asking them out? I can’t really think of any women I’ve alienated by just talking to them and not asking them out. Should I only ask out the minority who seem to really like me? I suppose that would cut the risk down. So I figure that is my best bet, just talk to them w/o asking them out.

Only ask out a small percentage of women that I talk to, only the ones whose body language and verbal language says they like me back. For the rest just talk to them. I think most of the alienation came from asking out women who didn’t give any signals that they liked me back.

I can’t avoid women. I can’t just give up on them, but I can’t keep alienating them either. I have to find a middle ground. The whole post is about that, help me find that middle ground where I can approach women and be taken seriously as a sexual creature, but not alienate them. I don’t know how to do this.

Also, try to address this whole ‘relapse to past events’ thing I have going. The reality is I think I did it again last year, I saw a girl smiling at me and (third time is a charm I guess) I asked her out and she laughed a bit and said she was busy. Even if she does know my past, there really isn’t anything she can do about it but tell a couple of friends here in town who probably don’t give a shit anyway if a guy they’ve never met had a mental illness a decade ago. ie, she can’t ruin my reputation or make it so my friends don’t want to be my friends anymore or anything.

Even if I get no good advice from this thread (I’m sure ‘see a therapist’ will make up most of the replies) the catharsis was still nice. Writing down opinions & feelings is very good for mental health. So that in and of itself makes it all worth it.

And it hasn’t been all bad. I don’t know if interent relationships count but I had an off/on relationship with an emotionally mature woman for about 8 years. We still talk, just not alot. She was never abusive or manipulative, so I can have a stable relationship with a mature person.

Again, these things bother me but not to the degree that you may think. I don’t really want or need sympathy and whatever degree of mental fuckedupness you probably think I am, decrease it by about 60-70% and that’ll be about where I’m at now. I’m not saying I never was fucked up, just that in 2005 I’m not.

2

Wow. That’s one long ass post. I really can’t give you any advice, but I can tell you what’s worked for me in the past.

Don’t go out ‘looking’ to hook up. Go out looking to have a good time. I find that girls are attracted to guys who look like they’re having fun. That way, you don’t even have to ask them out! You’re having your good times, and hey, if they want to join in on your good times too then somet of them will ask, “hey, this was fun! We should do it again! I’ll leave you my number, gimmie a call!”

On preview, I’m sure you know this already and that it’s simplistic. I think you’re thinking too much. Attraction is actually very simple. Wait, that’s not right…it CAN be very simple.

Ok, I am no help at all. It probably has something to do with the fact that I had to cut my night short because I have to work tomorrow.

3

You don’t think that has anything to do with the board demographics in general? Why on earth would college educated white males specifically have a problem with women?

I’m inferring from this statement that you’re asking out women who have personalities you don’t feel comfortable with. Why? Why would you want to spend time with someone you don’t think you’d really get along with.

Wesley, you say you’re mentally healthy and much better than you’re coming off as, but I don’t know you, I can only know what I read. And I’m reading that you’re not a very social person and are therefore nervous about your social skills, which in turn makes you shy and anxious. To be honest, you’re coming off as rather neurotic. Have you seen a counselor? I’m sure it’s cathartic to vent here on the SDMB but there are better ways to go about doing this. The SDMB cannot take the place of a trained therapist.

Finally, I’ve seen this over and over on the SDMB and it makes me nuts. “Women” are not some vague and inhuman entity that exist to torture men. Each woman is an individual human being. We all have different thoughts and interests. We don’t compare notes. There is no vast feminine conspiracy. When you lump all women together into this mysterious force, you’re being unfair to the nice girl who might like you except you’re too bitter to see it, and you’re making things more challenging for yourself.

4

You said it before I had the chance. It drives me nuts to see threads like “what do women want” and “what do women like.” Maybe if all you dateless wonders would try actually researching the interests and personalities of the individual women you are trying to woo, you wouldn’t have to come whine here. But then, the impression I get from the OP (or any threads like this one, really) is that he is not trying to figure out how to connect intimately with another human being, he just wants A GIRL. Do you even have a compelling reason for wanting a girlfriend? Not everyone needs to have a mate.

Also, how does mental illness (especially the kind of stuff you talked about) “leave”? I’m sure millions would love to know your secret.

5

Yeah I know, I am somewhat neurotic. Thats what I was getting at. I am not sure how to avoid it. I was hoping someone would have something similiar in their background and be able to offer quality advice.

First off, I don’t think I’m doing that. I am merely asking how do I avoid alienating people, or how do I avoid letting it bother me. I don’t know if I’ll get any good advice on that subject. And I have no idea where you or the others are getting your information about what motivates people like me or the others who make posts here on SD. You are lumping all of us together into some group I don’t think we belong to. I don’t believe in a ‘vast feminine conspiracy’ from what I can tell.

I avoid rude & stupid people.

6

I did not write the third quote you attributed to me.

7

Ugh.

  1. I am merely asking if anyone knows how to go about asking women w/o alienating them. Due to various circumstances I am bothered by the alienation that can result with alot of them. Hopefully someone knows something I haven’t tried before that I can look into.

  2. Yeah I know I don’t NEED a girl. I never said that I did. I thought I made that clear one paragraph into my original post. Maybe not.

8

I know. I cut & pasted the quote function and didn’t change names. Sorry.

9

I’m going to pre-empt the rest of the bad replies, or at least try to.

  1. I never said I need a woman, and I worried that by posting this people would get that impression so I tried to address that early on. But I am not comfortable doing absolutely nothing to meet women either as I’m not a monk. I am merely wondering how I can avoid alienating them when I ask them out.
  2. Yeah I am somewhat neurotic. But so what, find me a person who isn’t neurotic in one form or another (superficial, hates themselves, hates others, intolerant of diversity, etc) when it comes to dating. Why am I the disturbed one who needs help when threads like this exist or alot of people insult themselves and call themselves stupid or ugly because they aren’t attractive enough?
  3. The statement about college age white males being behind most of the posts about problems with dating was just something I’ve observed, I don’t know why I posted it, I figured maybe someone would take it up and run with it.
  4. I’ll start a pit thread here so those of you who are tired/disgusted by threads like this (but who still find the time to open them, read them and reply to them) can complain there.
  5. I know people won’t believe me but I’m really, really, really just looking for someone with some competent advice on what routes I should look at. Should I just talk to women w/o asking them out? Should I address the root causes of my fear of alienation? Is fearing alienation normal and I’m just overreacting? I felt I had to post background info so people could understand why this issue of alienating people bothers me. But alas perhaps that is too confidential/asking for help and this thread will get locked. Darn.
10

You mean stalking? Honest officer, I was researching!

WC, what is your geographical history? Have you thought about leaving Bloomington? Your history in your area, and I’m sure through no fault of your own, seems to keep haunting you…

11

I left my hometown a while back and moved to Bloomington. So its actually all good on that front.

12
  1. I don’t understand this “alienating” thing. You seem concerned about “alienating” people, women in particular. What do you mean? Why do you care?

Not to point out the obvious here, but if you meet some chick and she doesn’t want to date you, why do you care if she’s alienated? Everyone you don’t meet is alienated from you. Surely to God you do not have scores upon scores of female acquaintances and friends you’re asking out and “alienating.”

  1. You need to see a counselor.

  2. What IS your mental illness, anyway?

  3. Try online dating. Seriously.

13

Ok Wes. I for one appreciate your post. You’re spectacularly honest. And that’s a wonderful trait.

I always have advice/comments to give. I can’t vouch for whether they’ll work for you, so use or don’t as you see fit.

  1. Despite all the “you’re neurotic” crap, what you’re describing is not particularly abnormal - fear of rejection, feeling awkward, the awkwardness of asking a girl out, the pain of rejection, feeling like a freak, etc. These are normal adolescent/young adult concerns and obstacles.

  2. The more of an introvert, or socially awkward, or socially anxious you are - the more difficult those obstacles are. Those traits can put you years behind your peers, plus compounded with a history of mental illness, the going will be even slower. With age, practice and experience things improve dramatically.

  3. Your big mistake is the amount of analysis you’re putting into the issue. You’re a smart guy, so you expect your smarts will help you here, but unfortunately it won’t. Overanalyzing is just going to kill you socially and make you more neurotic. Most importantly this laser-like focus on your social performance is going to make you very egocentric. People are complaining that you’re seeing women as a monolithic group. It sounds like you are a bit, but I think what’s really going on is you’re focusing so much on yourself that you’re having trouble seeing anything else clearly.

  4. What will help you is years of social practice in many different contexts (work, acquaintance, casual, etc) and developing your identity. Get good at your work or school, or hobbies. Make some women friends - just friends. Once you have some confidence in who you are, your whole identity won’t be as shaken by a bad experience. In other words you won’t be thrown back into those horrible memories as easily.

  5. Don’t let high school experiences define your identity. At all. Lots of people had horrible horrible high school experiences, were totally ostracized, but who nevertheless turned out to be completely normal happy people. A little bit of social awkwardness or difference in high school can make you the class outcast. In real life you may still find that you’re socially awkward, but those things just become much less important as time goes on.

6 If you do see want therapy (never hurts) try group therapy. For the problems you’re describing individual therapy is likely to be a waste. Good group therapy can be a fantastic experience for dealing with social problems.

14

being married for 8 years to a woman i first dated for 5 years, it is hard to recall my courting years… however, I recall being devastated in high school after blowing my chance to tell a girl that I liked her… i made a vow to never look back on a situation involving girls and my romantic feelings and say “i wish i had said ___” or “I wish I had done ___”

after that point, I was as honest with women as you are with us. I recognized that not everyone was going to like me/find me attractive, just as I did not like everyone/find them attractive, and I never took it personally. I was never an insincere guy who walked around spewing complements or spilling his heart to every girl in an attempt to get laid, but when there was someone I was interested in, I would tell them in simple honest terms (ie., you seem nice and I am interested in getting to know you). i cannot tell you how many girls who I considered “unattainable” were refreshingly surprised and attracted by honesty and sincerity.

i am no adonis, and i think i am a big dork, but had considerable success being honest and (perhaps most importantly) recognizing subtle social cues from individuals who are 100% not interested.

my best advice is follow three words:

“speak your mind”

if you are not getting the reaction you would like:

“lose that number”

15

‘You know the problem with women, Pee? They live on land!’

I haven’t had enough coffee to get through the thread, and anyway I’ve stopped looking for a relationship; so I don’t have any advice – nor would my advice be worth anything. But I just had to come in and post the quote from The Pee-Wee Herman Show. :stuck_out_tongue:

16

Dames. Can’t live with 'em, can’t live without 'em. Ya know?

Introverted as all-not-get-out, I have very poor social skills too, and suffered from that for most of my life. But then I decided to quit worrying about it. After all, I have plenty of other skills that sometimes even inspire admiration in others. I realized it was better to feel happy about my strengths and it didn’t help to fret about my weaknesses.

Since the universe is a cosmic jokester, as soon as I quit worrying about social skills, my social life improved and I even had would-be lovers chasing me. Then I got to see life from the other side: how to turn down suitors gracefully. This was a new social skill that I had to learn for the first time! I’m still not very good at it! Wesley, you’re very smart and I guess you already know the answer. Just love yourself and people will come to you, you won’t have to go to them. It takes a lot of patience. Patience is a very useful skill that can be cultivated too. Yeah, you think too much. Practice meditation and let the thoughts detach themselves from you and drift away. If I were you, I’d learn a musical instrument. Playing guitar or piano was always a great consolation to me when dealing with loneliness. (And if you get good at it, people will flock to you.)

17

This old guitar taught me to sing a love song
It showed me how to laugh and how to cry
It introduced me to some friends of mine and brightened up some days
It helped me make it through some lonely nights
Oh, what a friend to have on a cold and lonely night

18

I think group therapy would be in my best interest. But I have heard that just writing things down so you can reread them later in a detached state of mind is also good for you, so I figure why not do that here.

As far as the ‘alienation’ thing, I just am not sure how to avoid doing it because I feel that due to past events the idea of alienating people bothers me more than it would someone else but maybe I’m overreacting and everyone feels that way. I still think my best interest is to just approach/talk to women w/o asking them out because that is always fun and helps build social skills because I can pick up on signals, carry on conversations & assert myself alot better now than I could a year ago due in part to my attempts to approach women. Like I said, I honestly don’t think I need a woman, I’m just not comfortable doing absolutely nothing to meet women either. I’m looking for that middle ground where I can approach and ask women out w/o making them or myself really uncomfortable. I don’t know if that is possible though, not just for me but for everyone. If not, then learning how not to be bothered by the issue would be something I’d like to learn.

And I enjoy my analytical nature. Its what I’m like, it makes debating and problem solving easier and its fun. Just call me Sam Rothstein

19

They closed my pit thread. That sucks.

20

Regarding the alienation thing, ever wonder why Gallant can ask dozens of women out and they say no but seem complimented and don’t alienate him while Goofus asks out dozens who say no and seem creeped out and never comfortable around him again?

There are definite differences in how to ask a girl out. If you come on as too intense, as in too much or too little eye contact, that’s creepy. Is there a difference in how you behave in a casual conversation with another fella and how you behave when asking a girl out?

If you appear neurotic and needy, it’s likely to alienate her. It’s like going “Look, I’ve got baggage!” and who wants to deal with that straight off? Giving off the hurt puppy vibe, like her answer is the most important thing in the world and you’ll be mortally wounded by a negative response is putting too much responsibility for your ego on her shoulders.

If the asking out comes at an inappropriate moment, say in the middle of a conversation about traffic and you suddenly work up the nerve to say “Right, I hate rush-hour too, wanna have dinner?” and wind up giving the impression you weren’t actually participating in the conversation at all. Great, he’s not listening to me already and wants me to go out with him?

The really successful asker-outers I’ve observed have a few traits in common. They actually seem to enjoy women, they like being around them, like talking to them, appreciate them as a whole. They enjoy the game, enjoy the flirting whether it leads anywhere or not, don’t take rejection seriously or give off any angry or wounded vibe when answered with a no. When someone like that asks random girl out, she might say no but won’t be likely to be creeped out and alienate him as a result.