I Pit Amazing Grace Baptist Church

Kindergarten through eighth grade, four years of high school, and five years of undergrad, if you’re curious. (I said something like "**close to **twenty, IIRC.) And there’s a difference between “knowing your shit” and “being able to back that shit up with specific references,” especially when you come out of a religions tradition (Roman Catholicism) that puts a low emphasis on Biblical literalism.

I fail to see the “cognitive dissonance.” You think that only people who are Catholic go to Catholic schools, that all people who are raised Catholic remain Catholic their entire lives, and atheists have no exposure to any religious traditions? Hoooooookay.

1.) Uh, no, it wasn’t specifically in reference to that. It was in reference to being able to bring up a bunch of quotes to back up the idea of Jesus negating all the old piddly laws (like working on the Sabbath, getting circumcized, cotton-poly blends, etc.). What thread were you reading?

2.) I swapped the words when I wrote it (sorry, my brain does that sometimes), but I was clearly (in line with my previous assertions) citing it in its original, unswapped meaning.

It’s a Pit thread, not GQ. You can tell the difference, because it’s right up there in the header at the top of the page. If you can’t read it, I can take a screen shot and circle it for you, so you can try to memorize the pattern of pretty lines for next time. Posting here, I have no need for due dilligence, and correspondingly, you have no need to take me at my word.

ETA, because you’re probably either too lazy or retarded to follow the chain back yourself: I saidI didn’t have a Bible handy in response to this postfrom Sampiro, which while it quoted my swapped post, had everything to do with unsubstantiated claims and nothing to do with me swapping the words.

No it’s Satan that caused humans to sin. I believe that sometime in humanity’s history God-guided evolution produced a sentinent man with a soul but it fell from grace and that was parableized into the Adam and Eve.

Also I will be starting a thread on the Bible and homosexuality in Great Debates soon.

God created Satan.

Edit: that was a big mistake. That didn’t work out for anyone.

“God Created Righteous Lucifer; Lucifer Created Wicked Satan” Still… does God’s creations come with a waranty?

The corrections are moral learning in general.

God help us. :smack:

I do not believe that is the mainstream Christian perspective. Most of Christianity I come across would argue that God gave everybody free will and that humanity is not coerced by any entity to sin, they do so out of their own will, which is why they need redeeming. Satan may have shown humanity the way, pointed them in the right direction so to speak, but ‘cause’ is probably way too strong.

The problem with this whole redemption affair is that it’s a complete cosmic farce. I believe it is a common Christian belief that when Jesus returns and Sorts Things Out that there’s going to be no more sin, no more issues and everybody will live happily ever after. I assume that this means that the potential for sin to return is also mysteriously dealt with.
Now, this begs the question. Why couldn’t this have been the default state of affairs to begin with? God as defined by Christianity is all powerful, all knowing and infinite. If he can redefine the rules in the future for everybody to be hunky dory, then why couldn’t that have been how it is all along? You may argue that free-will necessitated it, but then that would mean God is following pre-set rules that he did not create. If God is the uncaused first cause of absolutely everything then he designed the state of affairs we are in right now.

He must be a child tormenting ants with a magnifying glass then.

The cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with you being an atheist who was raised Catholic. It was your claim we should trust you because you spent almost twenty years in Catholic school. At the same time, you can’t be held responsible for knowing the bible *because *you’re an atheist and can only deal with physical artifact bibles.

You believe both those things at the same time.

But you don’t know your shit. You can’t back it up with specific references - not because you can’t deal with an online bible, but because your assertions are wrong.

You’re kind of testy, aren’t you?

Shot From Guns The point is, if you can post on the SDMB you DO have a bible handy.

If you’re trying to get the prize for the official 1,000th Great Debate thread on the Bible and homosexuality I believe it’s already been handed out.

God is said to know all things before they happen and so in that case He would know His children would sin and knew the evils men would commit; such as Hitler and other despots, so since God created people who would do evil, then allowed it, He is as responsible as a human parent would be if they saw their child holding a gun on someone with the intent to kill them, or as in Hitler’s case allow Hitler to be born.

In the OT God had the habit of sealing women’s wombs when He didn’t want them to concieve.

That’s a puzzle, all right. An example: Jesus knew what was going to happen to Him (“Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.” Matthew 20:18).

He even knew who was going to betray Him (“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.” John 6:70 & 13:21; “He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.” John 13:26, Mark 14:20),

but He had also already promised all twelve of His disciples a throne beside His in heaven (“Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 9:28, Luke 22:30).

Jesus also knew that the one who betrayed him would suffer (“but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24, Mark 14:21).

Poor Judas. Did he have a choice? No, not if Jesus knew this all was going to happen. Judas was just the one who drew the short cosmic straw. And, yes, he suffered for it (he hanged himself), but he got the same reward (a throne) as the other disciples (unless Jesus was mistaken, or lying :eek:).

Jesus also said, “It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! [= It is impossible to avoid all stumbling blocks, but woe to the one who provides them.]” Luke 17:1.

Just who is putting these stumbling blocks out there? God, who created Lucifer and Hitler and who presumably knew what they were going to do? Or were they mistakes? If God does not make mistakes, then the evil people of the world, who perpetrate evil and encourage others to do evil were created on purpose. Where does that leave us?

Well, then we must have reached a conclusion. What’s the answer?

God is ultimately responsible for everything, but this is a very trivial understanding, not very important or noteworthy.

Yes, that damned Jesus getting God to withdraw his heavenly hand.

Jarlsberg cheese.

I know, we didn’t find it very satisfying either.

That’s odd. I find Jarlsberg cheese very satisfying. Just a nice amount of bite to it.

Homosexuals by a split decision, though Friar Ted called it as Jesus by a throw. Justices Scalia, Taney, and Judy absent.

Curtis, you might want to educate yourself about the basic theological principles of those “mainline liberal” churches before you go any further. You are smart, but like all of us, you are ignorant of some things. None of the denominations that you metioned – Episcopal, Methodist (actually United Methodist) or Presbyterian – believe in salvation by good works. All believe and teach salvation by the Grace of God..

I hope that gives you a big reason not to distance yourself quite so dramtically. As for the rest of it, of course we are to be tolerant. We aren’t supposed to sit in judgment on each other. That leads to division and hearts filled with hatred. (Remember the skinheads.) Even Paul said that he did what he wasn’t supposed to do and didn’t do those things that he was supposed to do. He was no model of behavior or predictor of the future. He meant well, but he was just wrong.

I meant that some Mainline Protestants may believe in salvation by works not all.

I wasn’t aware of any Protestant sects that hold with salvation through works.

ETA: I also don’t think it’s the official stance of the RCC, though I don’t feel like looking it up. Though Catholicism does leave open loopholes for non-believers, so I guess that is “salvation through works” to a greater extent than through faith, but I was taught that it had to be a combination of faith and works AND grace.

I don’t think there are ANY mainline protestant churches that believe in ONLY salvation by works. The fact that many mainline protestant churches believe in salvation by BOTH faith and works doesn’t mean that they denigrate salvation by faith at all.