I Pit Men Who Think Working Women Are There to Service Their Sex Drive

[zweisamkeit]

I say this seriously to the men here: if you are not one of These Guys, you cannot try to view the situation through your eyes/experiences, okay? Normal, decent guys will remember times they awkwardly/clumsily flirted, or genuinely complimented a woman but got a bad reaction, etc.

This is not the same. Trust us, please?

@emcee2k

When I read the OP I just thought “Well that guy’s an obnoxious douche”. ** It wasn’t until I read post #8 that I figured out that this was an issue of feeling threatened.**

And that’s probably because you can’t imagine actually intending to threaten/intimidate a woman into compliance. Hey, that’s a good thing! But it means that it can be easy to dismiss valid concerns women express because you have no frame of reference for this type of awful behavior.

Maybe that’s the issue here, though, if you’ve actually experience a situation like the one described in the OP, maybe the feelings associated with it are implied.

Going by how many women have posted in this thread, backing up the OP, you are right on the money.

And from the perspective of the person actually dealing with repeated unwanted advances, there probably isn’t much noticeable difference between “obnoxious douche” and “threatening creeper”.

Actually, it’s more than that: we have no way of knowing whether This Guy is “socially clueless”, “obnoxious douche” or “threatening creeper”. It would be great if Threatening Creepers clearly looked threatening and creepy, but they don’t. Life isnt a movie with clear visual cues. They look like everyday people.

If you, as a woman, have alarm bells going off, you may be misjudging a Socially Awkward guy. But if you ignore the alarm bells and try to convince yourself he’s just Socially Awkward, but he actually is a Threatening Creeper? You could end up being stalked, attacked or even killed. Are the overall odds relatively low that this would happen? Sure, but it’s potentially your life at risk, okay? So when you, as a woman, repeatedly hear that you’re overreacting, too sensitive or fucked in the head for feeling threatened, it really pisses you the fuck off. Especially when a news report about a rape/assault/murder of a woman by a stranger will always have comments criticizing the woman for not being more careful, or she “should have known (etc)”.

@Princhester

I understand that having the misfortune to run across someone like this is bad, but really your title reads as if this particular type of guy is common or at least some sort of noteworthy minority. He sounds to me though like a nutter, not a wannabe smoothie.
[snip]
but as a simple statement of fact that if you get nauseous and can’t sleep from anger after an encounter with someone like this, rather than being able to blow him off as a random irrelevancy, you are going to have a tough time in retail.

Again, you cannot look at this through the eyes of a decent man. Some points:

1- most men really and truly do not understand the power/strength/size difference between men and women (in general, of course). Imagine if a significant chunk of the people you interact with daily are Shaq-like, proportionally, compared to you. Tell me that you honestly wouldn’t be a bit more wary in encounters with Shaq-sized nutballs.

2- If her title does “read as if this particular type of guy is common or at least some sort of noteworthy minority”, then it simply is accurate, I’m sorry. Decent men not only would not pull this shit, they also don’t tend to witness just how fucking common this shit is.

3- Sometimes a woman has to choose between looking over sensitive and paranoid or potentially risking her safety. Read earlier in this post for elaboration.

@LurkerInNJ

He came back? A simple flat “We’re done here Sir” with no face or eye contact the second he opens his mouth and walk away.

It’s adorable how confident you are that this would resolve the issue instead of potentially escalating it. In my personal experiences (note the plural, there), that response is more likely to escalate the situation and make him pissed off and potentially aggressive.

I’ve already taken way too long writing this post (on my damn phone, even!), but I could list specific incidents in my life where These Guys have genuinely scared the crap out of me.

[grude]

I had a food server of the female type, in other words she had a vagina if you cattch my drift.

I actually stopped buying food from her because of the aggressive flirting, seriously it got annoying. I told her I didn’t think my wife would approve, she suggested converting to islam so I could marry her too(unsure if this is true or not but muslim marriages do get special legal rights here). Hah very funny lady.

[blindboyard]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

When I was 19, I got a job working retail at a bakery. My first day on the job, when I was extra-eager-puppy-try-to-please-the-customers, I was working the counter, and a middle-aged man struck up a conversation. I told him my name; he said, “Wow! I’m in the big brother program!” and showed me a picture of an eight-year-old boy in a baseball uniform in his wallet. He told me his name, reached out to shake my hand–

–and caressed my palm with his middle finger during the handshake.

I would have just assumed he was a Freemason.

I’m still not seeing the threat. Fine, he’s bigger than you and acting like an idiot, but he also left when asked. Only if you’re just assuming that all men are an imminent threat because they’re bigger than you does this seem threatening.

Don’t worry so much about your safety. Women are victims of only a minority of violent crime, no matter how tiny they might perceive themselves to be.

[sandra_nz]

Ew ew ew. Coming back the next day to berate you for not calling him is definitely creepy.

What was your manager doing whilst all this was going on?

[BigT]

@Broomstick

Give me some credit - this was NOT normal on any level. Not normal flirting. Not normal socially-maladjusted-lonely-guy-talking-to-salesgirl. This is a man who’s decided he wants a piece of my ass and doesn’t want to hear “no”.

Look, I’m not trying to belittle your experience. You were scared. You don’t have to prove to me or anyone that you had the right to be scared. Emotions are not something I have any right to tell you about.

But, I’m sorry, it’s unreasonable to think that people should have inherently got that your first post was about you being scared. People were not being mean to you–they were cracking jokes to try and make you feel better. Yes, even the women. You were the one in this thread who through the first punch, and your response is the reason people are now attacking your story.

If it is really your goal not to be fighting these people, I’d suggest asking for the thread to be closed, and open another one in the sympathy forum (MPSIMS). If, on the other hand, it gives you some sort of relief valve to lash out at people, then go right ahead. But realize people are NOT doing it just to be an asshole to you.

[palacheck]

This thread is certainly sexist. Against men.

By the way, it’s usually wiser to wait for some actual overt sexism on the part of the male dopers before the usual crew of crusaders begin waging war.

[Broomstick]

@LurkerInNJ

If it was threatening then why did you give him your attention and tell him about your marital status and listen to him while he talked?

“Are you married” is a COMMON question people ask - men and women both. Asking “Are you married?” is not creepy stalker shit. Insisting I should be girlfriend after I politely respond to an innocuous inquiry is creepy stalker shit. Coming back the day after is creepy stalker shit.

In other words, the first few sentences exchanged were not creepy stalker shit. But, of course, I’m supposed to be a mind reader and if I’m not then I’m “asking for it”, right?

Why did I “give him attention”? Because he came in to get his shoes fixed. HE used that as an excuse to be a creepy, horny asshole. All I did was fix his shoes, hand them back, and ask for payment just like I do for EVERY customer. HE decided this meant I was a potential sex toy. HE decided that my repeated “No, no interested” was an invitation to try harder. HE decided to come back the next day to continue the “chase”.

But somehow doing my job put me in the wrong here?

Let me clue you in - HALF our customers are men. I have to talk to men to do my job. If fixing a man’s shoes, handing them back, and asking for payment is an “invitation” to sexual harassment and creepy stalker behavior you’re essentially saying ALL retail women are wannabe whores.

HE had the abnormal reaction to normal behavior here, not me.

Why do you ASSUME that what you suggest is NOT exactly what I did? Do you seriously think someone like this is that easily discouraged. No – now he wants to “apologize” and explain he was just being “friendly”. At length. Everything is an excuse to prolong his presence in the shop. EVERYTHING. Interaction. Non-interaction (why are you ignoring me? I’m just trying to be friends…!)

He came back? A simple flat “We’re done here Sir” with no face or eye contact the second he opens his mouth and walk away.

Uh, no – did you miss the part about I’m at work? No, I can’t just “walk away”. Aside from the other customers, and the shop itself, I can’t just abandon the several hundred dollars in the cash register.

And hey – why should I be the one to leave? I’m not doing anything wrong here, he is.

@sandra_nz

Ew ew ew. Coming back the next day to berate you for not calling him is definitely creepy.

What was your manager doing whilst all this was going on?

We operate the shop kiosk solo. The manager was in the next county training two new hires, but regardless, normally I’m the only one in the shop.

Even if she HAD been there, why the hell do you think that would have made any difference whatsoever? He still would have tried to “seduce” me. He still would have protested he was just being “friendly”.

@blindboyard

I would have just assumed he was a Freemason.

I’m still not seeing the threat. Fine, he’s bigger than you and acting like an idiot, but he also left when asked.

Yeah, HE did, but until he “left when asked” she didn’t know if he was the “leave when asked” sort or the “pursue her even harder” sort.

Dude, using a handshake to caress a woman’s hand, especially to do so in a surreptitious manner, is NOT NORMAL. This is yet another case where the women are going to get it and the men aren’t. In my experienceS (note the plural) doing the “secret caress” while shaking hands always leads to the guy trying to get you aside later to continue his “seduction” because, you know, he’s so godddamn manly a mere touch of your hand will make you want to be his sexual play thing.

Here’s another clue - women are barred from being Freemasons, so a Freemason will never be doing the secret Mason handshake to a woman. So no, it can’t be that. Nice try to discredit the gal discussing something that sets the warning bells off.

Only if you’re just assuming that all men are an imminent threat because they’re bigger than you does this seem threatening.

Don’t worry so much about your safety. Women are victims of only a minority of violent crime, no matter how tiny they might perceive themselves to be.

And yet, the majority of women experience some sort of sexual affront/assault at some point in their lives. I’m not talking about about flirting and verbal harassment – that’s almost daily for women. I’m talking about unwanted touching, unwanted embraces, kissing, grabbing, restraint, and yes, on up to brutal beatings and rape.

The truth is only a minority of men perpetrate this shit, but they impact a vastly greater portion of the female population than you might think from their numbers.

@BigT

But, I’m sorry, it’s unreasonable to think that people should have inherently got that your first post was about you being scared.

Except that most of the women DID get that from the first post. It’s the men who are having trouble getting it.

People were not being mean to you–they were cracking jokes to try and make you feel better.

People also crack jokes at funerals. They crack jokes when a woman is raped. That doesn’t mean it’s OK. A motivation of “trying to make you feel better” doesn’t erase the hurt of careless remarks. Then getting huffy because you accidentally offended someone and saying the hurt party is unreasonable is bullshit.

Yes, even the women. You were the one in this thread who through the first punch, and your response is the reason people are now attacking your story.

No, some of the men are attacking my story. The women are not – not even ZPGZealot. I’m not sure of the motivation here, but I’m guessing some decent men either just don’t understand or don’t want to believe this shit happens. Other guys… well, it gets back to “the woman is at fault”. The women are “unreasonable”, they’re “hysterical”, they’re “over-reacting”. In other words, the woman is wrong.

If it is really your goal not to be fighting these people, I’d suggest asking for the thread to be closed

I did, in fact, ask for this thread to be closed. The mods have elected to completely ignore that request. Later on, I decided to respond to some of the bullshit flying around.

But realize people are NOT doing it just to be an asshole to you.

No, they’re doing it (I hope) because they’re clueless and don’t understand. In other cases, I think they sincerely believe the woman is always in the wrong in these situations. It’s the same shit we see EVERY time someone discusses an assault or rape or stalker situation. That’s part of the reason I get pissed off. It’s impossible that EVERY woman is just making it up or evilly scheming to do Bad Things to the poor, helpless men of the world.

Guys, this shit really does happen. You, yourself, might not personally do it. As I said in the OP, MOST men are decent and don’t do this. The problem is that some men do, and the second problem is that all too many decent men don’t believe when a woman says this is happening.

[sandra_nz]

@Broomstick

Even if she HAD been there, why the hell do you think that would have made any difference whatsoever? He still would have tried to “seduce” me. He still would have protested he was just being “friendly”.

1. My post was supportive to you.
2. I asked about your manager because it surprised me that noone else stepped in to support you when this jerk was harassing you. I didn’t want to make any assumptions so I was asking for more information.
3. Your rude response back to me has, quite frankly, made me lose a lot of sympathy for you.

[Steophan]

The “shit that happened” is that someone talked to you.

Claiming it is anything more is fucking offensive to people who have actually been sexually abused, to people who have seen the damage to their loved ones caused by sexual abuse, and by the vast majority of men you are tarring with the same brush as rapists and abusers.

Sure, he shouldn’t have made you feel uncomfortable, and he was an arsehole for doing it. There’s nothing in your story that rises to the level of threatening for any reasonable person, though, especially as you’ve now said that he wasn’t propositioning you the second day.

[Ferret_Herder]

@Broomstick

I DID. I told him to leave now after he handed me his phone number. He came back the next day. After pitching a fit about my not calling him he whined why couldn’t I just “be nice” to him. Yeah, meaning spread my legs and open my crotch to him is what he meant. To hell with him. I hope he catches some nasty disease and his goddamned dick and balls rot off.

I was merely trying to explain what ZPG’s reasoning might have been on the socialization comment, not criticizing what you actually did or didn’t do. I’m sorry that it might have been taken as such, and in the future will avoid typing on the go to allow for a more complete explanation. In this case, a “get the fuck out and don’t ever talk to me about anything not related to work again” would have been better to type (not for you to say), apparently.

[MegaBee]

That’s horrible, and I’m sorry it happened to you.

[Broomstick]

@Steophan

The “shit that happened” is that someone talked to you.

No, the “shit that happened” is that a man wouldn’t take no for an answer to “will you fuck me?”

Claiming it is anything more is fucking offensive to people who have actually been sexually abused, to people who have seen the damage to their loved ones caused by sexual abuse, and by the vast majority of men you are tarring with the same brush as rapists and abusers.

Ah, so you totally blow past my REPEATED assertions that MOST men aren’t like this and don’t engage in this behavior. Gotcha.

Sure, he shouldn’t have made you feel uncomfortable, and he was an arsehole for doing it. There’s nothing in your story that rises to the level of threatening for any reasonable person, though, especially as you’ve now said that he wasn’t propositioning you the second day.

Uh… getting upset I didn’t call him to set up a tryst to cheat on my spouse may not exactly be “propositioning” me, but it’s NOT an innocuous exchange. That’s how stalking gets started - some guy misinterprets an ordinary verbal exchange and will not take “no” for an answer.

He didn’t imply a tryst. I didn’t “misinterpret” his actions. He asked if I was married. I said yes. He said, and I quote “That does not bother me.” He then told me to call him and we’d meet and he’d give me some REAL loving. Again, that is what he said “real loving”. He would make me happy. I would forget my husband. He would take care of me. I said “No, I am not interested.” He then insisted on giving me his phone number on a piece of paper that said “for a good time call…” with his name and number. He then said “you call me, you won’t regret it, I’ll make you so happy.” I told him to go away. NOW. He left.

He came back the next day upset that I did NOT call him!

So, sorry, no, I did not “misunderstand” the poor man. He wanted sex. He more or less demanded it and clearly doesn’t give a good goddamn whether or not I want to fuck him.

He also had a fucking irritating habit of mispronouncing my name. I was willing to attribute that to his foreign accent but no, he told me he thinks it’s “prettier” the way he says it. Just another aspect of how he doesn’t give a damn about me, all he cares about is his idea of me, which apparently includes a name change and fucking a total stranger.

Of course, I now expect I will be told my story doesn’t hold water and I’ll be berated for not giving all the details from the get-go or accused of changing my story because, you know, the woman is always wrong. I’m “rude” because I’m pissed as hell about this and the nitpicking that implies I must have done something wrong or led him on. No, I didn’t. He came up with the notion of fucking a woman he just met and with refusing to take “no” as a “no”.

It’s funny how some people will believe me when I tell them something like this and some won’t.

[Steophan]

Interesting how you’ve not actually responded to anything I said.

It certainly doesn’t prove anything, but if your mischaracterisation of and overreaction to my post are anything to go by, that guy may well have done nothing wrong.

[Darth_Panda]

@Broomstick

It’s funny how some people will believe me when I tell them something like this and some won’t.

I believe you. I think the guy is an asshole and probably dangerous. I think it’s appropriate for you to be scared/worried and thinking about what makes sense in terms of protecting yourself. I also think that while the vast majority of men aren’t like this at all, that there are enough where it would definitely bother me a lot if I were I woman and probably scare me too.

I also think you’re being a complete asshole in this thread to a bunch of people who are actually sympathetic towards you, or would be. With some exceptions of course - some people really are that clueless, but no one’s really on their side anyway.

[Broomstick]

@Steophan

Interesting how you’ve not actually responded to anything I said.

I directly quoted you while responding to something you said. This statement of yours is nonsensical.

[Broomstick]

@Darth_Panda

I also think you’re being a complete asshole in this thread to a bunch of people who are actually sympathetic towards you, or would be.

Sorry, I don’t think making jokes about my finding something threatening is being “sympathetic”. I realize that some people think that laughing it off is the way to handle it, and that people may make those jokes with the best of intentions, but no, it doesn’t work that way for me. I suppose I should just shut up and laugh along with them then go off in a corner and cry quietly where I won’t bother anyone else but I’m sick of kowtowing to making everyone feel better other than myself.

Too much of this sounds like “why did you lead him on?” or “why are you alone in the shop?” or “why didn’t you leave?”. That’s how it sounds to me at least.

So, sorry if I offended someone who was trying to by sympathetic or came across as rude but I am fucking pissed as hell about this as well as scared and it doesn’t bring out the best in me.

[Dissonance]

@ZPG_Zealot

The incredibly high number of men I have encountered who do believe the opposite is precisely why I only rarely shake hands with men and then only wearing gloves.

So when you [del]are publically raped you demand they at least wear a rubber[/del] shake hands you demand they wear rubber gloves?

[Broomstick]

When I read something like that I can’t help but think “finger condoms”.

(Pretty sure ZPG is the one wearing gloves in that situation, but I could be wrong)

[VinylTurnip]

[CENTER]DivaCup®
in association with
SnackWell’s® Sensible Snacks
*
present*

a Lifetime Original Movie:
**
WHEN LECHERS ATTACK**
*
Starring*
**
VALERIE BERTINELLI** as Broomstick the Cobbler/Victim
YASMINE BLEETH as the Concerned Best Friend
THAT GUY WHO USED TO BE IN “WINGS” OR SOMETHING as* the Concerned Husband*
EMILIO ESTEVEZ as the Concerned Septic Tank Repairman
THE MALE MEMBERS OF THE STRAIGHT DOPE MESSAGE BOARD as the Anonymous Victim-blamers Who’ll Never Know What it’s Like to Be a Woman
*
and Special Guest Star*
**
JEFFREY WRIGHT** as *the Old Creeper with an Indeterminate Foreign Accent
*
brought to you by
LIFETIME TELEVISION
"TV for the EstroGeneration"™[/CENTER]

[Cat_Whisperer]

Vinyl Turnip, I’m starting to think you’re not taking this seriously.