Opal, thank you for your continued support and friendship.
As with anything legal, things are taking their good old time in the legal system, but believe me, you will be hearing from me. In the meantime, the kind words and support are very helpful!
Without wanting to add additional fuel to what looks like a thermonuclear explosion rather than a fire - do you really see no difference whatsoever in this behavior when committed by a 14-year-old rather than, say, a 25-year-old?
OpalCat, I hear where you’re coming from, but I wonder where you draw the line, and if it’s the line that’s different from Sunrazor’s, not the philosophy.
I know I personally am more than irritated when a school calls the police on a 6 year old who kisses another 6 year old behind the bookcase. Or a couple of 4 year olds comparing anatomy. Or a 3 year old who wants to “see the baby’s penis” at diaper change time. Or a 14 year old and his 15 year old second cousin heavy petting at a family reunion. These things, to me, are perfectly normal childhood curiosities and mimicking of adult behaviors among children of similar developmental stages. I don’t think anyone involved is a pervert, a child molester or destined to be a rapist. They can best be handled, IMHO, with parental intervention, understanding and an admonishment not to do that anymore.
Sunrazor, (originally, remember he’s retracted this since) put this case in with that sort of thing. Not “boys will be boys,” but “kids will be kids”. He’s come to see the error in this - 14 year olds of today are not “kids” (although I agree with him that they used to be) and they are not developmentally in synch with 8 year olds of today, and most importantly, the 8 year old was not a consenting participant. I’m not talking legal definitions of “consent” and age 18 and all that rot, I’m talking about the fact that she said no and walked away.
So I’m glad he realized that, and I don’t think he’s saying, or ever said, what you’re attributing to him - that cases of molestation and abuse and rape should be covered up. He just didn’t think at first that this was a case of molestation, abuse or rape, but of sexually curious kids playing sexually and one getting cold feet.
My mother is a professional in this field and is friends with a lot of other professionals who all deal with sexual abuse on a daily basis (including one who is a social worker who does counseling with adolescent sex offenders). We recently had a near-miss in our own family that led to a lot of discussions about what is and isn’t normal, including her talking to her other professional friends about it and getting back to me with their opinions. I have also discussed norinew’s situtuation with her. Based on her many, many years of experience and the books she’s written on the topic, I trust and respect her opinion on the matter, and so I am pretty confident in saying that this is extremely red flag behavior and absolutely NOT something innocent that “boys will be boys” can explain away.
I am not remembering saying that there is “no difference whatsoever in this behavior when committed by a 14-year-old rather than, say, a 25-year-old” so I’d like it if you’d please point that out to me where I said that. What I did say is that this type of behavior, statistically, tends not to be a one-time thing. It tends to continue, and it tends to escalate. If they start when they’re 14 or when they’re 25 doesn’t change that. It seems creepier the older the perpetrator gets, certainly, but a teen showing sexual predatory behavior toward a pre-pubescent child is definitely not normal and is a sign of serious problems.
Well, that’s fair enough, but if you only formed this opinion based on your interaction with a mental health/child abuse professional, it seems rather unfair to castigate others for not forming the same opinion without the benefit of the same interaction.
Where, exactly, do you draw the line between WhyNot’s “normal childhood curiosity” and your “these kids will probably turn into rapists if something isn’t done” attitudes, is what I’m saying…?
Regarding the first paragraph, I agree entirely. Regarding the last, what I’m attributing to him is that he thought that a young teen coercing/forcing an 8 year old to suck his penis was the kind of thing that should just be handled by the boy’s parents (and if that used to be the way that most people thought, as he implied it was, then I liken that to people who used to think that wife beating was the kind of thing that was “not their business” and not to be reported to the police, etc.). I think that makes him an idiot, or at the very least, extremely ignorant. Yes, it’s good that he finally figured it out, but it’s disturbing that he didn’t realize how serious the situation was automatically, and shows what I see to be a frightening level of cluelessness. I agree with those who have expressed worry about what kind of values his sons have (not that they would be the abusers, but that they might also shrug such behavior off as no big deal).
Perhaps it is unfair to assume everyone will realize the level of severity of the situation, but that does not lessen how angry it makes me when people attempt to convince others that it is not, especially after having it explained to them. (Grasping for an analogy here–this may not be perfect but it might help) It would be like a fire fighter in a thread about fire safety. I would expect that while he might realize he is more informed about the topic, if he saw someone vehemently arguing that such-and-such was completely safe when he knew it to be an extreme fire hazard, he’d be fairly angry if that person kept insisting that they were right.
As for where the line is drawn, it is drawn at puberty–when the perpetrator is clearly post-pubescent and the victim is clearly pre-pubescent. At least in terms of the law.
I understand your frustration; I merely think you overreacted somewhat to Sunrazor’s comments. I will grant that while I like norinew just fine, I don’t know her and it’s perhaps a little unfair for me to judge your reaction(s).
The perpetrator in this case would be pubescent, not “clearly post-pubescent”.
I’d like a cite for “in the eyes of the law”, if you don’t mind.
Yes there is a difference. But it doesn’t mean the 14 year old did nothing wrong. He is certainly old enough to know that what he did was wrong and, mostly likely, also knew it was against the law (I would have known at least, maybe I was a brighter than average high schooler)
I would say the difference in age and physical (and to be blunt, sexual) maturity would be the difference. The fact that at 14 he is attempts to be sexually involved with someone so physically different from him is a red flag. (See the tanner scale here: Tanner scale - Wikipedia )
Well, sure, I would too, I think.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned here, though, it’s that children can’t be held to the same standard of accountability as adults.
I’ll admit that I’m out of my depth here, though, and reserve further comment. I certainly wouldn’t argue that norinew did anything wrong, which, I suppose, is the point.
All I have for you is that my mom asked me, in terms of the thing that happened with our family, if the other party was past puberty, and when I said yes, she said “then that makes it [insert whatever the name of the crime was–I can’t remember].”
Might be a jurisdictional thing. I’ve never heard of that. Were you in Ohio?
I’m in Ohio, my mom is in Arizona.
Are we finished here? We can debate definitions and consequences in the GD thread. I’ve already apologized for missing cultural and social shifts, explained I don’t know why they happened and admitted to a certain amount of ignorance.
Remember, however, that I’ve been a journalist for most of my adult life. Skepticism is a trait that becomes deeply ingrained in us ink-stained wretches, hotlinks and citations notwithstanding. Everybody has an agenda, even me, and we all spin the facts to suit our agendas. I’d suggest that the energy being expended here would be better applied toward helping **norinew ** get through her own ordeal.