Here’s some excerpts from Anders Behring Breivik’s “manifesto” which was published on the Internet shortly before the bombing and the killings:
p. 812:
p. 828:
p. 834:
p. 834-835:
(bolding mine)
p. 836:
p. 840:
(bolding mine)
p. 846:
p. 847:
I don’t know about you Americans, but to a European this is more than uncomfortably close to the rationalization used by groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion. Ever heard of them? This is the use of violence and terror to further a political goal. If you choose to not call that terrorism because it was a lone person doing it, it’s your definition, but you can never make me agree with you.
I’d prefer that the ‘Us vs Them’ mentality isn’t beaten into people from a young age. Which is one of the reasons I don’t approve of separate schools based upon religion. That and teaching fantasy as reality. At least if they have a differing viewpoint, they’d have the ability to compare ideas and, more importantly, see the other side as people, too, only with differing ideas. Something that may have helped Nutty McNut before he went on his killing spree.
The strong “us vs. them” mentality isn´t all that strong between Norwegian political parties,
and most definitely isn`t beaten into kids in youth parties all that much. The viewpoints
within the different political parties are way too different to allow easy “Us vs Them” mentality
they also have contact with their political counterparts on a regular basis.
-They go to school with “the others”
-They discuss politics with “the others” after football practice
-They work with “the others” at work or in non-profit organizations
-They discuss politics with “the others” in private and official settings
most of these kids are very active locally. These Youth parties gives them an alternative to the “mother parties” they would otherwise belong to.
The adult professional politicians usually are only at camps and meetings as guests or speakers because they don´t belong to the same party. They usually have no opportunity to beat anything into these kids.
You will usually get more “us vs. them” mentality at soccer practice, at home or in non-political groups in general than at these camps
I believe I understand what you are skeptical/worried/etc. about. I also believe you are making a (at this point) non-issue into an issue.
People with very polarizing or us vs. them mentality/rhetoric are usually not very popular in these organizations because they push members away.
For the record, I´m not very fond of religious schools myself, mostly for same reasons you have given here.
Sorry mate, you’re just hand-waving now. Suicide bombers are ‘taken off the street’ too on the first day of murder - by their own actions.
Michael Stone acted in isolation at Stormont in 2006 and was taken out immediately too, and I’ve never seen anyone try to exclude him from the definition of ‘terrorist’. Indeed even his defense counsel defined his actions as “a piece of performance art replicating a terrorist attack”. Though given that it seems so important to you that this Norwegian terrorist isn’t defined as one, perhaps you’d like to try?
If you read the ‘Lone Wolf’ page I linked, isolated action is a stated terror strategy of far-right groups - work in isolation, don’t tell others what you’re doing.
The dude had a political manifesto, links with other European far right groups, planned and committed acts of terror to further that manifesto, and is charged with terrorist offenses by the country whose citizens he attacked.
I think in pretty much everyone’s world, apart - for some bizarre reason - from yours, he’s a fucking terrorist.
Other than the anti-gay thing and the Jesus shit, I don’t have a problem with the Boy Scouts. Dump that and I’d say it was pretty good.
Re. Norway. Dump the partisan (assuming there is one which others have assured me is mild (assuming they would recognize ‘mild’)) political agenda and you’d have a good camp out and BBQ.
Well, that ‘us vs. them’ mentality is so strong over here that all the Norwegian party leaders, from the right wing to the left, have declared this to be an attack at Norway and Norwegian ideals, not at one political party.
There’s a rather fundamental difference between our political environment and the way I perceive the US political environment. Over here, only the extreme wingers use the type of rhetoric I often hear from your side of the pond.
ETA: We also have MPs married to MPs from “the other side”. They discuss their politics in the Parliament and live nice private lives together at home.
You do realize that it’s an interest in politics that brought these teenagers together in the first place? There are plenty of non-political organizations out there for kids who just want to go camping and stuff, but these kids have an interest in politics. Are you saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to go camping with people who share a similar interest?
Not at all. I’ve just never heard of 700 people who want to go camping based around some political philosophy. The only similar things I’ve heard of are whack job religious types brainwashing the young before they drink koolaid. As I’ve intuited before, I must have lead a sheltered life if this is so common no one blinks an eye at it.
Just because it’s hosted by a political party doesn’t automatically make it indoctrination.
In Europe, most major parties are much more mainstream and moderate than the two US parties which have to accommodate so much opinions under one umbrella.
What I read about the US youth camps and what I know from European camps are two completely different things. The only thing in common seems to be that kids or teens are at camp, but everything else is different.
It’s probably because it’s not indoctrination and no extremism, but the “let’s discuss how to improve our democratic system locally, let’s compare different approaches to solving problems, let’s learn some facts” approach that they got so many teens interested in the first place.
Brainwashing to drink kool-aid is really the exact opposite of what this is.
You have never heard of the indoctrination camps in the US, or you have never heard of the different political style in Europe?
You are just not familiar with the way things are done in Europe, I guess.
In most European countries (the ones I know about anyway) there are a myriad of parties, sometimes the difference between one and the other are insignificant to an outsider. Some of these parties have just one point of interest (Green! Immigration! Beer!). Since one party rarely gets enough votes to control the government they need to negotiate with smaller, or equally-sized parties to form a coalition. This would not work if the parties in questions were fundamentally different.
The downside seem to be that sometimes minority parties and one-trick-pony parties end up getting disproportionate power as they are courted by the larger parties and promised policies aligning with their beliefs (Danish People’s Party I am looking at you).
Oh, sure, a whole bunch of them were sent there because, well, if Mom is the Labor Party councilwoman for Lutefiskhavn it’s expected that at least once in their HS years her kids will attend. But how’s that different from anything else – these kids went to the politically oriented camp, somewhere else there are 400 youths who went to football camp or 100 at computer geek camp.
As mentioned a bit upthread, I try to think of it as a Young Republicans or Young Democrats “convention” only done in the format of an in-residence summer camp. You socialize with other youth activists and/or teenaged children of political activists, attend motivational speeches; go to seminars about how to organize, collect signatures, use social networking to promote causes; attend performances by comics and satirists and musicians identified with your side, and in the off-hours try to hook up with fellow youth activists of your preferred gender.
