I read slash. I'm going to hell.

The BBQ Pit
81

IIRC, several years back some authorized Trek novel was written about the backstory romance between Will Riker and Deanna Troi. I guess I have no problem with this, because A) it’s authorized by the people who own the rights to these characters and created these characters and B) it’s within the scope of behaviours realistic to those characters and so the actors would have little reason to complain, as it’s merely an extension of the characters they’ve already agreed to play. I’d still prefer that the actors had some control or veto-power, but it’s just not feasible and I can live with that.

So when X-Files fans were writing and publishing on the net so-called “shipper” fan fic, romance stories between Mulder and Scully, I didn’t much approve of that because that was not authorized by Chris Carter, even if it was within the realistic scope of those characters behaviours. They’re his characters, not yours.

My only problem with the homosexual aspect is that, when applied to heterosexual characters, it makes for an extreme hijacking of characters, stolen from their creator and twisted to fit the slash author’s desires. If I wrote some screenplay about two gay men coming to terms with their sexuality and overcoming obstacles to gain the acceptance of their families and community, I surely wouldn’t appreciate someone on the internet writing a piece of “fan fiction” in which one of the characters decides homosexuality is immoral and that he really prefers having sex with women after all. You’d be twisting my characters, and I wouldn’t even want to call you a “fan” of mine.

But as I said, any unauthorized fiction co-opting characters from popular works is offensive to the hard work an original author put into creating those characters.

And we all have interests, but my problem with “fandom” is that people become fixated on one particular interest to levels that can only be described as “creepy”.

You may or may not be. If all you do is read a few stories on occasion, you probably aren’t. But all you need to do is see a few of the slash websites to know that there are many, many people who are totally obsessed with this in ways that look positively unhealthy, much like that Belvedere fan club’s unhealthy fixation on Mr. Belvedere.

Of course I don’t care what you think about. But would you go up to James Marsters and tell him that you fantasize about him in homoerotic situations? Probably not, because you know that might creep him out. But people are apparently willing to hide behind the pseudo-anonymity of the web and do essentially the same thing. What bothers me is that people publish this erotica on the net. Publishing it is what can harm the actors, and it’s what would tick off the creator of the characters.

If Josh Whedon, James Marsters and David Boreanaz all said explicitiy that they had no problem with fan fiction, including that of the erotic nature being written, then at that point I wouldn’t have a problem with someone writing Spike/Angel erotic fan fiction. I would consider that sufficient authorization.

How am I confused and ignorant? Aren’t I allowed to find it “weird and creepy” that people obsess over writing and reading erotic fiction about TV characters, to the point where they spend hours compiling and reading websites with literally hundreds of such stories? People in this thread may have tried to turn it into a slash fiction fan party, but this is the Pit, not CS, and the OP was not so limiting. Tolerance means you allow something to go on if it doesn’t hurt anybody, that you agree not to interfere with it, but it doesn’t require you to endorse everything or approve of anything, it doesn’t require anybody to like anything. As I’ve said, if it didn’t harm anybody, I’d just say “I find it weird and creepy, but you feel differently, so go right ahead.” My issue is that in addition to finding it weird and creepy, I also think it can be harmful to actors, and that it is unfair to the people who created these characters.

82

The characters in the OP are Sirius Black and Remus Lupin. There are no actors who have played them yet, but as of this time next year, there will be (Gary Oldman and David Thewlis, if I’m not mistaken). The two characters are adults.
In the story I was reading, their age was emphasised for this reason - obviously, we know them as adults, so the story ran along different lines because they were sixteen. That means they were of age, but why does that make a difference? Not all slash is about people fucking each other’s brains out, and this certainly wasn’t. As I said in the OP, it was PG-rated.

Why? Why does it make any difference? If the Harry Potter books weren’t being filmed, would that make it okay with you? And in any case, if I wanted to write slash about actors, I’d write slash about actors (in truth, I think that’s slander, so I wouldn’t) but that’s not what I want to do. I want to write about two fictional characters - Sirius and Remus. It has nothing to do with the actors playing them.

Cite? As I said in the OP, a lot of slash is very, very bad. In bad stories, authors do what you’ve described. But do you not think there’s any intelligent writers who just want to write a good story? Writers who’ve actually paid attention to the characterisation and tried their level best to make the characters think and behave exactly the same way as they do in the canon?

Why?
So… if I’d never seen the show, but read the books and novelisations, and then started to write fanfic, that would be okay?

And it’s at this point I think I’m being whooshed.

In the case of the OP, bestiality is involved anyway.

That aside, do you know why shit-fetish and bestiality are not generally present? Because first and foremost, slash writers are fans. They know the canon inside-out, and they know that the characters they borrow wouldn’t do that. The idea, in case you missed it, is to keep the characterisation as close to the canon as possible.

He probably wouldn’t approve. But that’s not what we’re trying to do. We’re not interested in Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford. We’re interested in Luke Skywalker and Han Solo.

That’s right. When we give them more free advertising than they’d ever dreamed of.

There’s an ATMB thread here.

83

Your whole “sick, obsessed, creepy” shtick makes you look like a jack-off of the highest order, not to mention an intolerant asshole. If you don’t like slash, fine–but going on about how “those people” are “totally obsessed” in “ways that are unhealthy” makes you look, honestly, like a nutcase. It’s not rational and it has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with your ridiculous prejudices and preconceptions (or possibly misconceptions.)

Harmful to actors? Yeah, I’m sure they’ll be devastated people find them attractive. I doubt these people are trolling for fic, anyway. If they find it troubling, that’s their own damn fault. I don’t really care, because it’s not about them.

Here are the ABC’s of a reality check for ya: a) not all slash is explicitly sexual. b) we are fantasizing about the characters, not the actors. c) slash has far more to do with personalities and characters than it has to do with appearances. In fact, I’ve read many stories about characters played by actors I’d never think to fantasize about. It’s the writing that makes it sexy, not how these people look.

84

This fellow sounds like that guy who started the thread ages ago to say that everyone who likes anime is a pimple-assed pathetic loser. Glad to see we’re getting the same response.

85

I used to be a fan artist, so I really don’t have a problem with fanfic. Fanfic is fun. You’d be surprised, RexDart, to learn that many “mainstream” authors started out as fan writers. Some of them (if memory serves) even wrote (gasp!) slash!

However, I have no personal use for slash. Zero interest. I used to have fan authors try to “court” me to illustrate their slash story. They didn’t get very far with me. Never would I illustrate a slash story. Didn’t even want to have my artwork in a fanzine that contained slash. Zero, zero interest. (I didn’t get officially “paid” for my fan art, so my only “payment” for my art was a free copy of the zine. And why would I want a “payment” of slash fiction? I’d never read it!)

One thing that I have to say about slash (after the standard disclaimer of whatever floats your boat is fine with me, some of my friends read slash, yadda yadda) is that please, please don’t try to sell me on the idea that Luke and Han were really doing it, or that any other slash “pairing” was really happening “behind the scenes”.

I had slash authors try to do this to me—to try to convince me (perhaps more themselves) that in reality, the creators of whatever movie or show secretly made Mulder/Skinner/ or Han/Luke Kirk/Spock gay, but could never write about it on the show. Please. They are NOT gay, they are NOT doin’ it, except in the slash writers’ (and readers’) fantasies. Fantasies, OK? That’s what they are. There are no “secret undertones”, unless the creators of the show say there are (and in a few instances, there are. Just a few). When a slash writer writes slash, it is their fantasy about an “alternative universe” where Kirk and Spock are goin’ at it. It’s not Gene Roddenberry’s “universe”. No way, no how.

Now, I assume that many of you slash fans are well aware that the slash you write and enjoy is just that—fantasy, not anything that exists in any tangible way in the original version of the show or movie you are writing about. And that’s fine and dandy. There are a lot of “alternative universe” versions of fanfiction out there, and it’s no big deal. My only beef is when some writer or fan tries to sell me on the idea that there really are “undertones” in the original movie or show. (As if this somehow legitimizes their like for slash.) No, sorry, I don’t buy the “undertones” theory.

86

Yosemitebabe, what are your feelings on non-canonical het pairings, just for clarification?

87

If it’s an “alternative universe” setting, no problem. But if the fan writer is trying to convince me that yes, Princess Leia really would fall in love with Boba Fett (or Chewie, or some evil Empire baddie), in George Lucas’s “universe”, it would be a very hard sell. Because it wouldn’t seem to gel with the whole George Lucas world (that I know, anyway).

88

Rexdart:

Once a person takes the step from reading, enjoying, and thinking about an author’s work – whether that work is a book, game, screenplay, teleplay, whatever – and begins to put their own ponderings about the book into writing, the territory is no longer completely that of the author. The characters are the author’s property, as is (sometimes) the world/city/country/whatever the story takes place in, but the situation is a deviation from “canon”.

On the subject of fanfic, first – I know that most authors, unless they are specifically directed toward amateurs using their copyrighted material, will not take issue with it. The prevailing opinion seems to be pretty universal (no, I’m sorry, I don’t have cites; this opinion comes from email chats with a few authors I’ve come into contact with online) as follows.

Fic writers (this is the opinion of many pro authors, esp. those who get fanficced a lot) really ought to be writing about their own characters in their own universes with their own voices. One of the highest-favored compliments for fanfic writers is “Wow, you sound just like (Author X)!” or “Man, you hit (Character Y)'s personality spot-on!” There are some exceptionally talented writers out there who would never get read if they didn’t write fanfic. They don’t all want to be authors, but they all enjoy writing, and on the Internet it is much, MUCH more likely for someone to read an author’s short fiction if that short fiction is a fanfic. If they’ve read a lot of, let’s say, Guin’s fanfic and think “Hey, this Guin is pretty good, and what’s this? She has some original stuff out! Let’s see what that may be…”

But most authors seem to be of the opinion that even though the authors really ought to be writing their own stuff, that it’s not a big deal. It’s good they’re writing, and everyone has to get their start somewhere. Lots of people hone their writing skills on fanfic site (read and review, folks), and by the time they’re ready to strike out on their own they have a good base to do so from.

Most successful (read: famous and well-published) authors don’t have a big problem with fanfic. Anne Rice is a notable exception – the idea of other people writing for her characters apparently gives her the willies. That’s fine and all, but she is most assuredly not going to be able to stop it happening. Terry Pratchett, on the other hand, doesn’t have a big problem with it – as long as he doesn’t have to read it. Not because it’s universally bad, but because HE could get sued for plagiarism if he, after reading a piece of fanfic (or after it can be demonstrated that he knew it existed), incorporated any of the ideas into his own book. With the number of fans he has and the amount of fanfic out there, it’s not just possible that someone might hit on the same idea he did – it’s worryingly likely.

You’re saying that all slash is poorly-written amateur erotica. Untrue, as has been pointed out. It involves levels of relationships usually not found in the author’s body of work, and that’s it’s only really defining characteristic. Just like any other fanfic, it varies widely in quality from barely intelligible poo to highly thoughtful, sensitive work in pretty nearly the author’s own voice. Some fanfic, including slash-type, can even exceed the original author’s work. I’ve seen it happen.

The problem with actors being offended has been addressed – the actors mentioned were not disturbed that fanfic existed. I think you’re assuming a little too much identification between the actor and the character they play. There’s a huge difference, and EVERYONE is aware of it. IANAActor, but I think that if I were, and if I discovered that there were slashy fics about my character and another one, I think I’d be a lot amused and a little flattered. I didn’t write the character and it isn’t me, so why should I worry? I’d worry that the actor had gotten too emotionally involved in their role if it DID bother them.

Your problem seems to be the fact that fanfic is online and easy to get hold of. It’s also very, very easy to avoid. Publishers and authors KNOW about fanfiction.net and other similar sites. They KNOW. They’ve seen it, they’ve heard about it, they’ve been told. And yet somehow the sites are still online. Oh, some authors will contact them and say “Hey, it came to my attention that you have some fanfiction of my material. Take it off or I call my lawyers.” And the fiction gets removed. It may get posted again there or elsewhere, who knows? And if it really, really bugs the author, they can tell the site (politely at first, then with lawyers) to disallow any of the offending stuff to be posted.

But you know what? I don’t think anyone’s done that yet. I don’t think any author’s had such a problem with the stuff that they went that far…and I’m even including Anne Rice, who certainly has the money to waste on expensive lawyers.

It’s Not Worth The Trouble. It’s just going to get put on someone’s Geocities webring. Then there’s also the fact that the author will look like a huge jerk to some of his/her biggest fans.

So do kindly get a grip, dear. No one has much of a problem with it except for you and a very vocal minority, which does not seem to include most of the people who have the right to be offended. They don’t need your help to take offense; they can do it on their own.

89

JFTR, Marion Zimmer Bradley was an author who was an early “victim” of fanfic. Her solution was remarkable – she not only read, and critiqued, her admirers’ contributions to the world she’d created, but talked her publisher (DAW, IIRC) into bringing out anthologies of their work, to which she contributed her editing skills (formidable) and one story per volume, as a sales inducement. She adopted a very few from the stories as “canonical” – tales told by people other than her which illuminate a portion of the world she had created and “fit” her image of what happened.

She developed several of the contemporary women fantasy authors in this way: Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Diana Paxson, and Elizabeth Scarborough come to mind as people who made the jump from Darkover fanfic to their own fantasy series.

An author who is offended by people who are so moved by the characters he/she has created as to try to tell stories based on them, is missing the entire point, but does have legal recourse as to how to deal with them.

And, JFTR, no actor identifies with the character he or she has brought to life on the screen sufficiently to take offense. (I refer you to Jean Stapleton, who adamantly refused to do even one line as Edith Bunker after the series ended.) Having a story describing a tordid affair or affaris between Vigo Mortensson, Orlando Bloom, Dominic Monaghan, and Elijah Wood (as did an example I read when I looked at the adultfanfic site) is, I think, going beyond the line – but it’s up to them, their agents and lawyers, to protest if they so choose. (Personally, I suspect that most of them are privately amused by the stuff!)

90

I think Mark Hamill would be the first one to say, if found out about a story that involved Luke and Han going at it-“Well, I’m NOT Luke Skywalker.”

Because he isn’t.

D’uh. Besides, what about historical fiction? Hey-maybe Richard III is REALLY pissed off in the afterlife because Shakespeare made him out to be such a tool.

Geeze, dude, calm the fuck down. You’ll give yourself a heart attack-and over what? Fan fiction? Not fucking worth it.

91

You know, I used to think I was a pretty free-thinking kind of guy. Open to new stuff. Posolutely and unshakeably hetero, but whatever floats yer boat, different strokes, and all that.

So I check out some of this stuff you guys link to. Gotta stay current, no flies on me, thoroughy modern E..

You guys scare the shit out of me. Keep yer distance, pervs.

92

I’ve been writing pretty much constantly all of my life. But last spring I was having a really, really rough time getting anything going. Finally, I just sat down and wrote a “What will happen if Spike comes back with a soul?” fic. I didn’t even plan on sharing it, I just wanted to write something!
I was amazed how easy it was, and since I have written over a dozen stories, longfic, shortfic, all of it het Buffy/Spike. Some in the future, some in the past, some AU. This Spring I tried writing my novel again, and it’s going swimmingly.
Why? Because I spent the last year practicing, writing as much as possible, and getting honest critiques back on my style from literally hundreds of sources.
It’s a win/win situation, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s perfectly normal and healthy. Quite frankly, it’s great practice, a lot of fun for the reader, a lot of fun for the writer, and in the end, quite harmless.

93

Allow me to elaborate on what pepperlandgirl said about the issues of originality.

I think we can summarize a few reasons why people read and write slash rather than original erotica:

a) Emotional attachment to the characters. A problem with a lot of erotica and your basic visual porn is that there is no reason to care about the characters. For me, and I think a lot of women, this is a problem.

b) Slash writers really have a large community–there’s a feedback loop here, and a comparatively large audience. Let’s face it, we’re all attention-whores to a certain degree–most artists want to know people’s opinions of their art. In particular, there’s this thing called “betaing,” which is basically where writers play editor for other writers. Slash has an audience, while original erotica’s appeal is much more limited.

c) It is easier. It’s fun to play around with a pre-defined background. That doesn’t mean people can’t create their own universes, but it’s fun to borrow others for a while. There’s a reason people have been writing about Robin Hood and King Arthur for centuries instead of creating their own mythical king or legendary bandit.

In conclusion–you do realize some of the links posted were parodies, right, elucidator? They were jokes.

94

God, yes. My best example is a ST: Voyager slash novel entitled “Canaan Land.” It has a breathtaking story arc (since rendered anti-canon by subsequent developments) involving the return of Voyager and certain conservative factions in Starfleet who attempt to cover it up; grass-roots activism by Voyager family members; and ultimate triumph. (Oh, and Tom schtupping, and having kids with, Chakotay.)

It included levels of depth and excitement I’d never seen in ST:Voyager (not difficult) - I’d say it was on or close to par with the very best of DS9 story arcing.

Marvelous. One of the best Trek reads I’d ever had, including the novelizations. The author wasn’t profiting, and didn’t need a budget, and didn’t need to attract a Friday night TV crowd, so she was free to let her imagination soar with these situations and use the abundant promise of Voy that was so shabbily wasted.

95

The anthology Star Trek series “Strange New Worlds” is basically a Paramount-approved fanfiction competition. And it’s up to volume 7, IIRC.

Me, I dislike slash. I don’t out and out hate it, but it too often seems to go against established canon for my tastes. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna froth at the mouth against the folks who do like and write it…

Even if they are pervs. :wink:

96

Sure. Fine. Whatever. Can someone obtain a restraining order for a message board?

97

You know elucidator, everytime I’m reading a random Pit thread and someone mentions what a fucking idiot you are, I pretty much ignore it. I mean, as far as I could remember, you were basically an OK poster with more decent posts than bad ones.

Well, next time someone posts what fucking idiot you are, I’ll be the first one there to agree with them.

98

If you see “slash” in the title of a thread, you may want to not open it, since you obviously find slash offensive.

It was good of you to at least give it a try, although I don’t think you gave it enough of a try, but now that you feel it’s not your cup of tea, then move on to a different thread. There’s no need to be insulting about it here.

Yeah, I know this is the Pit. But the rule about not being a jerk also applies here.

And that goes for you, too, RexDart. Calling people who like slash “sickos” is not going to help your argument.

99

Jeez, recalibrate your irony vectors, guys. Or, to put it another way, whoooooosh

100

But as long as I’m here, why is it called “slash”?