Guin:
You wouldn’t be quoting Scripture for that, would you? You know, because “it says what it says?”
I feel the need to explain my white swan monologue, if for no other reason than H4E may interpret it as a direct attck on her belief.
It isn’t an attack; it is an illustration of two things;
Primarily, that it is possible to construct a belief system that is entierly self-dependent and self-consistent, but simply wrong.
Secondly, that the piece of paper occupies a position somewhere between the extremes literal truth and utter falsity - it is partly right - it contains both true and false statements, plus bad advice and faulty inference.
You’re probably sick to death by now, H4E, of me asking the same question over and over (in fact I think perhaps you still don’t get it; you said "Sorry I don’t accept all you guys’ explanations of why I’m wrong", but I’m not trying to tell you that you’re wrong at all, I’m trying to get you to explain exactly how it is you know for sure that you are right. There is a subtle but important difference.
Remember - the salvation of your soul is much like your chosen seating in a restaurant.
“Smoking or Non Smoking?”
Reminds me of that joke about different rooms for different religions in Heaven, only you have to be quiet when you pass room 12, or something. Then St. Peter says, “There’s where ____” are, they think they’re the only ones here."
Only now it’s, “Oh, that’s where His4ever is, she thinks she’s the only one here.”
Guys, His4ever does indeed frustrate me. Badly. But can we try not to descend into a gradually faltering trail of juvenile ad hominem attacks, as so many threads like this seem to do?
I’ve been thinking about H4e’s attitude in here while I was away from the net this evening, and realized that I essentially become the same way when I’m in an environment that feels hostile to me. I found it necessary to ask that my posting privileges to the Pizza Parlor be revoked a while ago, for this very reason. I was finding it difficult to restrain my counterhostility in an environment that was, with few exceptions, extremely hostile to my views (on sexuality, politics, spirituality, and just about everything else).
And it clicked for me this evening that H4e isn’t terribly different in that sense. We here are, in general, hostile to the “Don’t Think, Don’t Reason” mindset of the ArchFundies that **H4e{/b] represents here. She finds the dearly held beliefs that form the foundation of her entire universe challenged and naysaid every time she turns around. When your house is made of paper, you start to get paranoid about people carrying around Zippos.
Despite my need to gag myself over at the Pizza Parlor, I did manage to replace a few of my more papery walls with something closer to good materials. I rescind my resignation in the Crusade to Educate H4e. 
Da-yum. You shift one little bracket and your whole post goes all squiggety-poo…
His4ever, for the benefit of my sanity, as well as the nerves of Guin, Mangetout, jayjay, Mr Visible et al., do you plan to ever akcnowledge or respond to perhaps as many as 1/50 of the points we’ve raised/questions we’ve asked? Only in this thread? If you’re just going to ignore what I say, do let me know and I’ll stop trying to help you.
Yes, help you. Far more useful to have someone fighting for my cause than against it.
There’s also one other thing I’d like to point out. In the thread which started this, there are at least two people other than DrChuckie and His4Ever who have stated their belief that homosexuality is immoral. While one of them did catch a certain amount of flack, the other is being spoken (written?) to in a calm, reasonable, maybe even pleasant matter.
DrChuckie didn’t just come in saying he believes homosexuality was wrong; in his first post, he used the term, “abomination”; in his second, he was outright crude. These are the two posts I quoted back on page 3 of this thread, and you still haven’t told me how you can see them as showing compassion. Now maybe this is my Episcopal bias showing through* but I don’t think there’s any excuse for a Christian to be rude, especially when speaking as a Christian. In other words, at the risk of sounding like a four-year old, he started it. I understand your desire to defend someone you see being unfairly attacked – I spent a lot of time doing that myself. It’s just that in this case, I think we thought we were defending ourselves.
I also don’t want to hurt you, but there are things which I cannot believe or accept either. If my choices were only to become your sort of Christian or become an Atheist, I would become an Atheist, because the sort of God your church depicts wouldn’t like me or want me around. Homosexuality to me is not an abstract; it’s two people I know in real life, care about deeply, and whose character I know. Just as you cannot give up your belief that homosexuality is wrong, so I cannot believe that this man who I’ve known since childhood and who stood by me when people were ganging up on me is inherently worse than anyone else because of who he loves when, from all I know of him, I consider him better than most. Among other things, unlike some people, the man is incapable of a direct insult. So, we stand on the opposite sides of our divide, trusting we’ll be reconciled in the end.
CJ
*There is an old joke about people from various denominations who are in Hell for various reasons. There’s a room for Episcopalians who, brace yourself – this might be shocking! – at their entree with their salad forks! 
Hey, what’s the point? I’ve already told you the answer, you don’t accept it. I base truth on God’s word. You have a differing opinion about that word or whether it even is His word. I choose to believe it is and nothing you say is going to change that. I made a mistake coming back and posting, instead of just e mailing DrChuckie. The way this board treats me and what I believe and why I believe it (and anyone else coming in here sharing the same beliefs) engenders nothing but anger, frustration, and resentment in me and that isn’t good for me. You keep trying to convince me to abandon what I know to be true and join the majority party line, well I can’t do that. You give explanations as to why I’m wrong about certain issues. Who says I have to accept those explanations? And I’m not going to try to answer your 20 questions everytime I turn around, either. We’ve been through this before. On other boards, people just share their views, agree to disagree, and they’re not usually as nasty about as many of you seem to be, almost militant in fact.
Of course, I can already hear the nasty comments ringing in my ears in response, so have at it. I really need to disassociate myself from this board and not even come to read because then I won’t be tempted to post. Nothing has changed here. You want me to respect your opinions and beliefs, fine, I respect them, I just don’t share them. You could do me the same courtesy and respect what I believe without all this name calling and nastiness.
Have a nice day,
His4ever
No. I’m trying to convince you to take a look at this guy you claim as an ally, to find out whether he’s breaking one of the commandments. If you’d rather act the martyr than do that, well, it’s your crucifix.
Daniel
We can’t .
We now realize you are right and we are all wrong.
You are the only one here who knows God’s thoughts and meanings.
You are (were) the only christian here.
Now we have been abandoned by you, left alone to suffer in teh lake of burning fire.
Sigh.
Please keep trying, don’t give up on us!!!
(understatement: Thank you, Monty)
“You want me to respect your opinions and beliefs, fine, I respect them, I just don’t share them.”
—Well, actually, you don’t respect them. You just keep telling us we are abominations.
shrugs I guess I was right. You aren’t here to share conversation. You’re only here to be a martyr. Well, whatever floats your boat, kiddo.
Have a nice LIFE.
**No, you still have not answered my question; let me state it again: Why do you consider the Bible to be God’s infallible word
**Oh please! I’m not trying to change anything except your habit of refusing to think.
**Why do you believe it?
**Nope (and I can only speak for myself here), I’m not trying to convince you to abandon anything, just explain yourself.
**THEY ARE NOT explanations of how YOU are wrong, they are attempts persuade you that you just might not be personally infallible. You (or any of us) might be wrong about anything, that is all I’m trying to get you to realise.
**I have no doubt we’ll go through it again and again; you have what appears to be absolute certainty of belief, but you have never (to my knowledge) adequately explained the basis (reason) of that belief.
[/quote]
**On other boards, people just share their views, agree to disagree, and they’re not usually as nasty about as many of you seem to be, almost militant in fact.
[/quote]
**Sure, on other boards, you can remain unchallenged about all kinds of things. You should see what some people have said about the moon landings. Sorry, it isn’t like that here and it isn’t meant to be. Deal with it.
**Martydom complex.
**Tempted to think for yourself, that is the real danger, I believe.
**What exactly was it that you expected?
**Nope, I don’t expect anything of the sort; I accept the possibility of being called out on any statement I should make; I expect to be corrected if I make a factually inaccurate statement, I expect to have to eat humble pie and modify my views if I make grand assertions that are later proven wrong; it has happened before(to me personally) and may well happen again. I expect to have the cosy rug pulled out from under my feet on a regular basis. A belief that cannot stand up to thorough examination and can only be held by running away from every doubt is, IMHO, not worth a bean.
**You too, really; I honestly bear you no malice whatever.
His4ever, do you honestly think you’re the ONLY one who ever gets her ass handed to her in a debate, or a thread, and it’s all about popularity?
Like, here, where I bungled myself pretty badly.
Did I go stomping off and throw a hissyfit? No. I’m still around.
Perhaps it’s because you completely refuse to explain that answer so people with actual intelligence can understand it.
NO YOU DO NOT! You base your evaluation of a statement as being true or false purely on if someone holds the same bigoted position you do towards one or more groups you despise. The latest proof of that was your falling over yourself in gushing about DrChuck’s website.
There’s that whole Free Will and Rational Mind bit which I believe, basing my belief on my understanding of Holy Writ, that God gave each and every one of us. You have not been asked to cease believing God’s word (see my earlier posting in this thread); you’ve merely been asked to explain why you believe Holy Writ is His word. Try explaining yourself without being a parrot and, just maybe, instead of chasing people away from God, you’ll actually bring someone closer to Him.
Nobody’s trying to get you to change your beliefs about God’s word. What they’re trying to get you to do is to quit parroting the bigoted lies you find from Chick, Chuck, and the rest of those who lie to the gullible.
Actually, you made a mistake when you refused to engage the mind the Good Lord gave you. That mind is a gift from Him. Don’t you consider it kind of rude to throw it away?
You attempt to treat me and those of my faith like we’re vile scum out to tarnish God and yet I don’t have a martyr complex. Even if you believe I do, it certainly doesn’t match the one you display here. You attempt, by your parroting recitation of falsehoods, anger, frustration, and resentment from those you encounter here. This activity of yours isn’t limited to targeting LDS. You’ve done this, and continue to do this, to Homosexuals, Roman Catholics, and anyone else you just don’t understand. And you don’t understand them because you refuse to engage God’s gift–the gift you’ve tossed into the back of the closet and decided it’s not worth using.
Yet another falsehood. Nobody’s told you: “Quit believing the Bible and God.” On the other hand, many have asked you, “Why do you believe that stuff? Can you explain your belliefs to me? How will it help me?”
I’ve yet to see anyone ask you to join any party line. Heck, ask vanilla! Ask Zion/Adam/ARG about that! I gave him some advice on how to debate his point. News flash! He’s almost more fundied out than you are! Nobody cares if you believe the Bible to be the Word of God. But, on this board, the way it’s set up, if you assert something, you’re expected to back it up. You appeared in the thread about the origin of the Book of Mormon, not to participate in a rational discussion such as has been asked of you, but to trash a volume some hold to be the Word of God. Go back to that thread. Read it. But this time, don’t read it for an opportunity to witness against something. Read it to see how those posters who have identified themselves as LDS have explained the why and how of their conclusion that the Book of Mormon is Scripture. Then consider treating your audience here as adults. Treat us as adults. Explain yourself as an adult. Again, just maybe, you’ll bring someone closer to God when you try doing it that way.
Nobody’s asked you to toe a party line, so it’s irrelevant if you can or can’t do it.
What people have done here is present you demonstrable facts which contradict the stuff you’ve parrotted from such sources as Chick.
Well, there’s the whole “shall not bear false witness” bit.
As many have expected, you are not here to debate. It’s taken you how long to finally admit that?
Yes, and you continue to tout falsehoods and opinions as though they are facts.
This board is the best on the Internet, in my experience so far, where people do exactly that: share their views, agree to disagree. And one very important thing you refuse to do for your audience here: treat others as adults.
Those who get lied to, especially when they are armed with demonstrable facts, tend to not appreciate being lied to. Or being lied about, for that matter.
Evidently, you don’t consider touting falsehoods to be a nasty thing. I was under the impression that God didn’t appreciate people doing that. YMMV.
That’s because you’re in some kind of orgiastic (look it up in a dictionary before you pretend what I meant by that) delight in the possibility of being a martyr. Too bad the true sacrifices of actual martyrs (for example, the LDS who got chased out of the country by people such as you) are cheapened by your use of the term martyr.
Yet again, when you refuse to engage your mind, which is the gift of God, you escape into threatening to leave. Newsflash #2! Your company’s not all that desirable. I believe a number of people have tried to make that point to you in their remarks about the desirability of your version of Heaven as compared to Hell. I have plenty of friends who hold the view that my religion is nothing more than written snake oil; however, they respect my right to hold to that religion and they are able to debate their view calmly, rationally, and honestly. That is something you refuse to do.
Not a thing. The vast majority of the board membership respects the well-formed opinions of others; the vast majority of the board membership debates, using well understood and accepted techniques of debating, differing viewpoints; the vast majority of the board membership gives advice, such as that you refuse to even listen to, to even those with opposing views on how to debate those views.
And you continue to flagellate yourself here.
Nobody gives a fig if you share those beliefs or not. What I, and IMHO most others here, care about is your continued touting of falsehoods such as what you just said. You do not respect our beliefs. OTOH, you demand that we believe what you believe. I don’t recall Jesus making any such demands. He presented the Truth, and he backed it up. The key difference between His methodology and yours, is that when He cited Scripture, he did it in both a loving fashion and he was on point with his citations.
You, by far, have been the nastiest person here when it comes to others beliefs. Once you get finished with that time management course I suggested earlier, do a site search for all of your postings and see how you’ve behaved here.
Finally: It’s not your religious beliefs people have a problem with. It’s your lies, your hatred, your blanket condemnation of that which you have no knowledge, your refusal to learn, and your martyr complex.
Thanks to my belief that 2 Nephi 2:25[sup]1[/sup] and Alma 41:10[sup]2[/sup] are God’s Holy Word, I always have a good day. Just yesterday, as a matter of fact, someone asked me (we were conversing some in Tagalog) “Kemusta ka?[sup]3[/sup]” My response, instead of the traditional “Mabuti[sup]4[/sup],” was “Masaya na ako![sup]5[/sup]”
His4ever
[/QUOTE]
I’ve mentioned this before, and I think this is just a good place to say it again: your actions here under that particular UserID are insulting, IMHO, to Him. NOT YOUR BELIEFS! It’s your actions. Try acting on the advice that book you claim to be God’s word tells you to follow and, just maybe, you’ll be Happy4Ever. <===See? Advice. & I don’t care if you hold even one bit of my religious beliefs.
[sup]1[/sup]“Man is that he might have joy.”
[sup]2[/sup]"Wickedness never was happiness.
[sup]3[/sup]“How are you?”
[sup]3[/sup]“Fine.”
[sup]4[/sup]“I am happy.”
On preview, I see Guin’s use of “hissyfit.” Thanks, Guin! Now, everytime I see the abbreviation “H4E” you know what I’ll be thinking!
I misnumbered the footnotes. Thou shalt read the corrected version herewith provided and thou shalt not consider the incorrect version as ever appearing before thine eyes. The incorrect version shall be as though it never wert. {Hey, I’m Mormon. Y’all have to permit me some poor KJV-ish language.}
[sup]1[/sup]“Man is that he might have joy.”
[sup]2[/sup]"Wickedness never was happiness.
[sup]3[/sup]“How are you?”
[sup]4[/sup]“Fine.”
[sup]5[/sup]“I am happy.”
Is that grammatically correct?
All your joy are belong to-
Ow! Ow! No hitting!
do you think she’ll come back?