It is shocking when a counselor tells you “It’s all hopeless. You need to start moonwalking away from your partner as fast as you can.” This is what I was told when I was in counseling with my partner. It’s sad that it took me 2 more years before I took her advice. I think that you will have some hard times, but in the medium and long-run be much happier as a result, and good luck to you.
I’ve been in you situation for the past ten years and I still don’t know where I’m going with it.
Good luck and lots of strength.
The first hardest step is recognizing when it’s over. Now get you exit strategy together. Good luck.
Thank you all so much for your support. I’m hanging in there and actually feeling pretty peaceful at the moment, because I know I’ve done all I can, and I truly believe that any changes he might make are only to appease me, and will disappear as soon as he feels secure again.
It’s OUR house, and yes, they’re his kids too. If I were in physical danger, I’d be gone in the night, trust me.
As far as who leaves, it makes more sense if he goes to a friend’s for a couple of weeks while we try to work things out. I have two older boys (who I won’t leave alone with him here), and I’m the primary parent to all four. If I go, it means finding lodging for a group…and if we have to stretch our income to include an apartment (and a lease, and electricity, you get the idea…) that big, we’d probably be looking at foreclosure of our home. There is no way I can just duck out and cool my heels for a few weeks, at least until summer break when the older two will be at their father’s for a few weeks.
cjhoworth, any advice is appreciated. Of most concern: Child support (I’m sure I can calculate this online somewhere, but I haven’t found it); and if I did what he wanted (which is to take the older boys and leave the babies), wouldn’t I technically be abandoning them? or abandoning my home, setting myself up to lose both in the future if things got nasty?
{{{hugs}}} to all of you going through similar circumstances. I’m so sorry. 
Thanks again to you all…you really ARE some of my best friends.
karol
Not really that shocking. It’s actually quite an interesting subject. Marriage/Relationship counselors, whether part time or multi-degreed professionals, range across the spectrum with respect to well… almost everything. It’s almost comical the extent to which marriage counselors (especially the professional ones) develop reputations among lawyers, who formally or informally many of them feed clients to, as “work it out” counselors or “it’s over, beat it” counselors.
Sometimes it is simply time to get out of Dodge, but in real world terms the validating imprimatur of a counselor that a relationship is dead and needs to be discarded is basically a personal opinion, and in the end counselors despite training and a sincere desire to remain objective and even handed are simply people, and based on personality predispositions, emotional baggage and personal likes or dislikes will often tend to develop therapeutic alliances with one partner or the other whom they personally identify with or simply like better than the other one, and this will often tend to color the direction of the “stay or go” advice.
Counselors, whether were talking Aunt Amanda at the kitchen table or Dr. Amanda at the Center for Conflict Resolution, can be helpful in mapping and bringing into the light both the obvious and hidden problems in a relationship, but as to what direction from “fix it” to “forget it” the advice takes from that point needs to be judged with a critical eye in the context of what your long term goals are for yourself and your family if children are part of the equation.
bodypoet, here’s a site on Indiana Child Support.
IANAL, which is precisely why I’d suggest you consult an attorney on this. The rules on this could vary by state. In addition, there’s financial, and possibly safety, concerns to deal with.
My condolences to you, bodypoet and Francesca.
I hope this works out best for all concerned.
I second what others here have sad, and emphasize:
you can’t afford NOT to speak to a lawyer. Any actions you take, or even DON’T take, may be interpreted in a courtroom later in ways you do not expect. If you leave your children behind, you might be accused of abandoning them, if you take them with you it’s conceivable you may be accused of kidnapping them.
I also think that questions such as, “…if I did what he wanted (which is to take the older boys and leave the babies), wouldn’t I technically be abandoning them? or abandoning my home, setting myself up to lose both in the future if things got nasty,” are not appropriate for you to ask us. It’s a very good question, but you cannot afford to rely on advice from us.
Snugglebear is completely wrong, you MUST talk to a lawyer.
My parents are going through the same thing, but my dad has got my mom so beaten (emotionally not physically) that she didn’t even contact a lawyer! She’s letting him handle everything…which is abysmally stupid, but what can you do? Well you can learn your rights and responsibilities re: the law ASAP. I’d hate for you to go through what my mom is. Good luck.
bodypoet, I’ve been through a similar situation after 10 yrs of marriage and two kids–and a good number of those years spent trying to fix something that just couldn’t be repaired. My first step was consulting a lawyer and it was the smartest thing I did. It gave me a great measure of comfort to know what I should/shouldn’t do and how best to approach the entire situation. I wish you (and all those going through this) all the best. Please feel free to email me if you’d like to talk.
Laura
If he were to move out, as you insist is the only option, don’t you think he would be accused (by your lawyer) of abandoning his kids and relinquishing (or certainly weakening) any parental claims he might have? Why is it that the only fair outcome you can envision weakens his position and strengthens your own?
Why is it that the only fair outcome you can envision weakens his position and strengthens your own?
The way I read it, seems as though she is trying to not disrupt the lives of the kids more than necessary. Primary parent - usually means… primary care-giver. It would be disruptive for all the kids to move with the “primary care giver”. It would be traumatic for the “primary care giver” to leave the kids.
pseudo, try looking at it from a results based approach rather than a positional approach. Let’s assume that both parents are good people, and start with the goal of shared parenting with maximum contact with the children by each parent.
Usually the kids will have greater stability if they remain in their house and continue to attend their school. It is bad enough for children to have a parent move out, let alone for the children to have to face a new house and new school.
Similarly, when one parent is the primary care giver, that parent usually has the best skill set to care for the children when changing from a two parent home to a one parent home.
Thus the children and the primary care giver stay with the house, providing a framework upon which a parenting plan, including access and support, can be built.
what muffin said. The well being of the kids is paramount.
WRT what astro said – yeah, my dh and I were told by a marriage counsellor that our marriage had zero future and we should separate ASAP. Considering our son had died 6 weeks prior to the counselling beginning, I think the counsellor was following some bizarre agenda of his own. We were there to talk about our grief, not to discuss separation.
It’s 10 years later and yes, it’s been a rocky road but we’re still together and functional.
{{{{{karol}}}}}} and {{{{{Fran}}}}}
I’ve just met a woman a couple of months ago in the same situation. Just widdowed with the Big C. We are getting together,
what - the hell, there is life after divorce!
At least our marriage counselor hasn’t totally given up hope–she thinks that we need a separation in order to give me some time to recover emotionally and to give him some time to realize what it would really mean if this relationship doesn’t make it. He seems to think that no matter how bad it is, no matter how mean he is, no matter how many weeks he goes between infrequent (and short) periods of loving behavior–our marriage will just keep trucking, and I’ll just keep taking it.
She also points out, however, that my husband may just not want to be married. He is clearly unhappy, and he cannot manage his unhappiness well enough to keep from taking it out on everyone around him. I hate to see him miserable but I can’t keep walking on eggs…I worry about what I am teaching my children by tolerating this.
Muffin, thank you for eloquently stating what I can’t seem to without either sputtering or blubbering. When I say I’m the primary parent, I mean THE Primary Parent. He loves the kids, and he loves to play with the kids, but I do 80% of the parenting and 95% of everything else here. If it weren’t for the older kids, I would prefer that the babies keep the house and we each stay here during our set custody times, but unfortunately, that won’t work in our situation. It would be terribly disruptive to the older two to have to move in and out on a weekly basis.
Primaflora good heavens! Your counselor sounds kooky. I’m glad it worked out for you. We’ve been in marriage counseling for over 2 years and continue to go at least 1x/week. We’ve just hit the wall, it seems.
Yeah, I did report the counsellor 'cause it was so freaking bizarre. IMO it’s not a terrific idea to separate by someone else’s suggestion that soon after a major loss like ours.
Hitting the wall can be a Good Thing though. We hit the wall in April and it really was shape up or ship out time for Mr P.
He’s shaped up beautifully 
How con-veeeeen-ient (as the Church lady used to say) that bodypoet’s position of looking out for the kids’ best interest coincides so neatly with her own interests, and so contrary to her husband’s best interests. (Assuming that he wants to rearrange his life and start being more involved in the kids’ lives. For all I know, he wouldn’t want to assume greater responsiblity for taking care of his kids. But if he did, in the present situation, why does she get to decide that a) he doesn’t have that option, he should just move out now or b) that if he wants the option, he needs to weaken his legal argument by abandoning his family.) I can tell you that physical removal is quite damaging to either partner’s claim to custody.
Pseudorubber.
or whatever your name is–What would you suggest she do? In an ideal world two people undergoing a divorce (assuming it comes to that) would live under the same roof together until everything is neat and tidy and legal. But that ain’t gonna happen. There are too many emotions involved and everyone would be tense and constantly miserable.
There is a difference between being ASKED to leave, and just up and splitting. No reasonable court is going to hold it against him, and she’s not going to be able to claim abandonment anyway!
What is your easy answer?
And how compassionate of you to make this call based not on my description of the situation, but on your own agenda, whatever that may be.
If you aren’t going to actually read and process the information I’m giving (Did you note the words “emotionally abusive”? Did you happen to catch that we have been in counseling for two years, and he is making zero effort to work on the issues that are ruining our marriage?), then your coments are meaningless, and worse, insulting.
So, your suggestion would be what? That I continue to live with this behavior, because it isn’t FAIR for him to leave? That I allow my children to model this behavior so that they can be abusive or abused in their own marriages? That I walk out, leave my babies in his sporadic and unpredictable care, when I am doing what I’m supposed to be doing in my marriage, because it wouldn’t be NICE for me to ask him to leave? Screw that. I’m in survival mode here.
There is a reason this is not posted in Great Debates or the Pit. For God’s sake, go start a pit thread about whatever you have under your skin and quit using my situation to practice making nasty comments. Your sneering is not helping anyone.
Well said, bodypoet.