I told my husband to leave.

Oh, well…damn the torpedoes…

When I said, “It’s his house, and they’re his kids, too.”, I mean that it belongs to both of you–not just you. You had no right whatsoever to order him to leave, and he was completely within his rights to stay right where he was.

Now, regarding emotional abuse…of course it happens, but we only have your word on it. It’s quite possible that he might have a different viewpoint. Ditto your claim to be the primary care giver.

shrug

Divorce just plain sucks. But being married to someone you don’t like sucks, too. Too bad you can’t just win the lottery, split it, and then go your own ways.

I wish good luck to all concerned.

Rystad:
"Being married to someone you don’t like "?
“Emotional abuse happens, but we just have your word on it”?
ooohhh…
If I am this pissed, I can just imagine how Bodypoet feels…

It doesn’t matter whether or not
other people see his behaviour as abusive, if the recipient of the behaviour DOES. If someone were to tell you that something you did or said hurt them or was disrespectful to them in some way, would you continue w/ the behavior just because, “that’s not how you meant it”? Or, would you, out for RESPECT for that person (that you are supposed to love) STOP?!
:smack:
It is your kind of attitude that leads to relationship failures. Yes, there are 2 sides to every story, but please don’t make light of someone elses’s situation by discounting their side/feelings, shrugging your shoulders, and then launching in on some fantasy about winning the lottery.

bodypoet, I know you are in some difficult times. My wife had similar problems when she broke it off with her ex-husband. It gave her problems with custody when she left without taking her son with her.

I have to say that I agree with yojimboguy here, and a benefit of talking to a lawyer is that it will serve notice to your husband that you are serious.

I wish you and your children the best of luck, and I hope that they have a better relationship with their father in the future, and that you find the choice that makes you happy.

Best wishes to you bodypoet. When my ex and I split, it was as amicable as possible and I know how hard THAT was. I can’t even imagine the pain you’re going through. I’m sorry you’re in the spot you’re in.

Good luck

Maybe it’s just me, but it might have something to do with that ‘emotional abuse’ part.

“Emotional abuse” is a much used and wide ranging term. It tends to be used and occasionally abused, mainly (though not always) by women to characterize an unsatisfactory relationship and depending on the situation can range from a verbally abusive spouse who rants and raves to a quiet passive-aggressive type person who withholds affection if angry or upset, to anything in between. How real and/or valid the claim of emotional abuse is in a particular relationship context is impossible to say as “emotional abuse” for one person is another persons emotional venting.

There is some real world degree of a double standard in the use of this term as it is rarely if ever applied to a woman’s verbal tongue lashing/abuse of a man and the quasi-passive/aggressive withholding of affection is often seen as SOP for normal female behavior. Oddly, the most cynical scoffers at the use of the term “emotional abuse” to characterize a relationship I have seen, are mainly other women in discussing problems in the relationships of their female peers when they felt the woman being discussed was either being a self indulgent, over sensitive martyr or had other agendas in getting rid of a current spouse.

Dissolving a marriage with children is a mess in modernity. In times past, on its most basic level, marriage existed for practical reasons to enable families by enhancing resource sharing and solidifying social ties and there were mighty cultural roots supporting men and women to continue in marriage even when difficulties arose. Men and women needed each other to survive in any kind of decent fashion. Marriage is now often an emotional whim and is as easily broken (morally and interpersonally if not socially) as it is started. Current laws, historical judicial inclination, divorcing women’s “survival mode” attitudes and legal wrangling to tend to marginalize men’s access to and attachment to their children which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of distant and detached (and occasionally deadbeat) fathers.

In the end it’s really sort of a moot point. If one person in a marriage perceives that the relationship has become unsatisfactory to the point of dissolution they can seek validation by labeling their spouses behavior with whatever negative label they want to. The upshot is that if a person is going to leave and has the power to do so, they will.

Quick question, slighlty off the subject. Astro well said post, but when you say it is ‘emotional abuse’ to w/hold physical affection when a women is angry.I have to wonder. Most people find it difficult to have sex when the are angry at the other person. Somehow, it just sort of takes the closeness and feeling out of the whole thing when you don’t feel feelings of affection because you are truly angry at the person. Don’t you think that expectation is a little unrealistic? ( BTW,I’m not sure if your post on that reflected your opinion, or just what you see other people do)

Truly sorry. I don’t understand your situation, nor can any of us, really, and if you want validation, I certainly recognize that your situation is a very, very tough one to be in.

I was trying to point out that divorce, the way we’ve set it up, is inherently adversarial. If either party has it as his or her top priority to see that the children are hurt as little as possible (which I wish were the case), then IMO it is necessary that each party ask: “What part of the burden of pain am I willing to take on myself, not on my partner, whose behavior could justify my shifting all of that burden onto him/her?” If you can come up with answers that are not self-serving, then I believe it is your duty as a parent to offer these voluntarily to your ex-to-be, and work out–through an arbitator if necessary–what his/her share is going to be.

I was trying to point out how your making such decisions unilaterally will, in all likelihood, exacerbate the adversarial nature of this difficult process, and result in him (or his lawyers) retaliating with what will seem equally arbitrary demands which you will very likely see as unnecesarily harsh.

It’s not always the case that the principals can overrule their lawyers’ strong counsel, but IMO you want to give yourself a chance to have your ex-to-be see you as fair and reasonable (and, yes, compasionate) in the TRUE interest of helping your kids. Throwing him out of the house is inviting him, if he doesn’t agree that he should go, to strike back. You’d be better advised to either accept that things are going to get very messy very fast, and possibly long-term, or else that you have some responsibilities in your divorce and that you’re willing to live with some personal inconvenience as a result. To justify behavior that happens to be self-serving just because it also happens to be arguably beneficial to your kids is not conducive to having a post-divorce relationship with your ex- that benefits your kids.

Look, anyone who’s not getting along with a spouse can claim “emotional abuse”; I don’t doubt for a second you feel you have tons of reasons for claiming to be a victim of emotional abuse, nor that your ex-to-be has no valid reasons to claim such an excuse. I doubt very much though that he agrees with you. Better that each of you take responsibility for your own part in causing the relationship to deteriorate, and recognize that your responsiblity entails accepting part of the burden. If this involves inconveniences in property rights, so be it. If this involves accepting financial inequities, so be it. If this involves splitting access to your kids/custody/etc., so be it. EVERYBODY GOING THROUGH DIVORCE BEARS SOME RESPONSBILITY AND NEEDS GO THROUGH MORE INCONVENIENCE THEY THINK THEY DO.

While it’s common for angry people going through divorce to claim all sorts of victimhood, and to claim that their own wishes are serving the greater good of reducing their kids’ trauma, acting on such claims usually ups the stakes of adversarial procedures. If you want to do so, that’s a valid choice. I’m not tellling you to be a saint, or to harm your own position in an adversarial procedure. But I am telling you that throwing him out of the house is benefitting YOU (quite apart from your kids’ benefit) and that, because he’s quite likely to see it that way even if you can’t, the longterm results have a built-in downside as well as the advantages that are obvious to you.

I wish you only the best as you go through a painful, confusing period in your life, and hope you are able to make the best decisions for all concerned, especially your kids. If you would prefer that I had kept this opinion to myself, then I apologize for sharing it with you.

Well, I don’t have any advice, can’t draw on any similar experiences, don’t have any legal advice nor an agenda of sorts, nor am I even in a relationship right now.

But what I do have are condolensces and prayers for you, bodypoet. I’ll crack open a fresh cake of your soap to use this week, so that you’ll be in the forefront of my thoughts. I also echo Winkie’s comments - we all know of a place that has some pretty damn good Scottish eggs, if you need a quick change of scenery for an afternoon. Feel free to e-mail me - my address is in my profile.

-Munch

/me wishes you and persephone strength and wellness. Hopefully closure and happiness to follow.

**bodypoet ** I am heartened to hear that in this circle of chaos in your life you are feeling peace. Take it whenever it appears and savor it. The end of a relationship, any kind of relationship, is never easy. Everyone enters a friendship/relationship with certain expectations. Things happen - life-death-work. People change. Sometimes we outgrow our partners or they outgrow us. These things happen, not overnight, but a gradual decline so gradual that when we wake up from the complaceny of the relationship and say, " I will not tolerate that anymore" you wonder why it did not bother you earlier on and how could you be so dense.

We are brought up that divorce is bad and we must stay married to that same person, no matter their glaring faults, for ever. We are now in a society where fifty percent of marriages do not make it. People seemingly marry now because it is a whim of a happy emotion that they ran with at the time not thinking about long term goals and life together and when a bad patch ( usually the first bad patch) crops up in a relationship, one or both the partners bail on each other. Disposable marriage.

In one hand if we stay in a marriage because *that is what everyone in the past did * but one or both the partners are miserable, it is a sham to not only ourselves but our children. Usually it is the woman who wants to keep things together because she is afraid of being alone and without a man. What message does this send to any of her daughters if she has them? If we are unhappy as husband and wife it will trickle down and effect not only our relationship with our children but their future relationships.

OTOH, if we bail out of a marriage, we are viewed as not trying hard enough and working things out.

We are clearly caught in confliction.

There are options and more freedoms today than every before for women. And you did the smart thing, trying to work things out and getting an unbiased opinion. The fact that you’ve already told him the news tells me, your anonymous faceless cyber friend, that you made this decision awhile ago in your head, but your heart finally jumped in on the band wagon.

Though I only know you from your posts, I have always found you intelligent, witty, hardworking and posessing a healthy dose of common sense. ( Oh, and really skinny and attractive too :wink: )

You have clearly reached a major crossroads of your life. The situation was intolerable and you did everything you could to save the relationship and the status quo had to be changed. *Going forward is your only option *and I sense that *you are strong enough to handle whatever is thrown at you. * Anyone who delivers papers at some ungodly hour in the AM is very strong, IMHO.
In closing, I leave you with two pithy quotations:

  • You cannot lead someone to positive change by doing for them what they should be doing for themselves.

He had a troubled childhood. He had a bad first marriage. He has a difficult mother. He has a stressful job. It all may be true, but it doesn’t justify *anyone * to being unkind to you. (me to a friend.) *

Good Luck!

Allow me to point out that all we ever have as evidence for any personal experience shared here is the point of view of the person relating it. So to trivialize that POV by implying that the experience did not happen is insulting to the person who just told you that it did.

Very good point, Jodi. It would take me so many words to say the same thing, I’m glad you got to it first.
Oh, my, too many names to name, thank you so much for your support. Munch, I am touched that you remember my soap, and that you are performing a time-honored soaper’s tradition–having someone use one’s soap is a very healing, heartening thing for us soapers.
pseudotriton, thank you for clarifying. Yes, anyone can claim abuse, but let’s not forget that sometimes the claim is TRUE. (Of course, many times abused folks deny being abused, why isn’t anyone fussing about that?) In this particular case, I’m not the only one who sees it–in fact, I was one of the last to admit it. He, on the other hand, does admit in counseling that he is verbally abusive and “mean.” My only point re: finances is that he cannot afford to pay both the house payment and support, should it come to that. (And I don’t think he would disagree with my continuing to be the primary and custodial parent.) So if I have to leave with the kids, the end result will be that they lose their home permanently. It all makes my head hurt, and my heart.
I won’t keep trying to explain and convince and argue with anyone who thinks I’m somehow playing the drama queen, putting on an attitude, or being untruthful. I’m not here to be anyone’s projection screen, if you know what I mean. I’m trying very hard to focus on the positives and find support where I can find it, and thank goodness, I’ve found quite a lot of it here. Thank you all so much.
And special thanks to Shirley, for calling me attractive. :slight_smile:

Bodypoet, I don’t have anything to add, but you are in my thoughts, and since I’m in the neighborhood, I can offer a he-man’s shoulder if you need it.

If I unloaded on youze guyze about the 15 years of hell my wife has put me through, I’d have to do it in the Pit.

**

What’s wrong with my statement about being married to someone you don’t like? Seems reasonable and logical to me. As far as the emotional abuse…as astro stated so well, there are lots of different contexts there.

Get over it.

**

Contrary to the old canard that “perception is reality,” --it’s actually only opinion. I didn’t question that she perceived emotional abuse. However, I’ve also heard that claim from someone when, more accurately translated, meant “He doesn’t kiss my ass.”

**

Depends. Probably, some explanation would be in order. I’d never intentionally hurt someone I loved. If they perceived something hurtful, I’d first want to know why so that then I could either make some adjustments in my behavior, or otherwise let them see that they shouldn’t perceive “hurt” when none was intended.

I haven’t yet discounted it. I understand that her husband admits that he can be mean and verbally abusive. That’s information I haven’t heard before. In any event, it doesn’t sound like there’s any future to the marriage, and that’s a shame.

Further, I don’t mind if anything I’ve said irritated you. And I’d further opine that confrontational attitudes such as yours have ended more relationships than one such as mine wherein I’d like more information before forming an opinion.

Lastly, as you requested, I hereby wish that she *doesn’t * win the lottery.

Better?

Also (not sure how to say this w/o restarting the fire I tried to quench above), but doesn’t the phrasing in the title of this thread have something to do with the critical tone of some posts, including mine? I think that’s in large part what got ME sounding so cranky, the assumption that when bodypoet gets fed up, she acquires the right to tell her ex-to-be to vacate the house they (presumably) joint-own, and to leave it immediately, no qiuestions asked, as if his only option were to shuffle to the door, mumbling “Yes’m. Sorry’m.” How about “I ASKED my husband to leave?” or “I wish my husband would leave” or better yet, “I think my husband needs to leave”?

On another related note (and possibly risking further flareups), this issue comes back to my earlier one about taking responsibility, in that bodypoet played some part, in phrasing the OP as she chose to, in creating the hostility herein, yet presents her case (a fairly reasonable one, btw) as if this hostility has been forced on poor innocent her.

I don’t know if this is coincidental but that’s more or less precisely what I was suggesting was at the heart of her marital situation, i.e., she contributes to discord (in the case of the phrasing, she clearly starts the discord), and when she gets some static back she places all the blame on her interloquitur. This only worsens the situation, all around, IMHO, and makes it harder for her to resolve her troubles.

Yep, on further reflection, I probably should have titled it better.

pseudo, you’re assuming a hell of a lot here. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t. Either take my word for what is happening in my own home (as I would extend that same courtesy to you if you tried to explain your marital/relationship issues), or move on without further comment, please. Even my husband doesn’t play “blame the victim” to this extent.

Shirley, I just had to mention that except for the first marriage, you could be talking about my husband. Sadly, I didn’t realize until just recently that he was abused as a child…and he is repeating those behaviors in our relationship (toward me, not the babies.)

Well that’s all good for expressing symphathy. But when giving advice on dealing with the situation (as people are wont to do) it is useful to bear in mind that to the extent that you only know one perspective - in a situation that is extremely prone to have more than one - your advice may be counterproductive. Something to bear in mind.

bodypoet,
I’m sorry you’re going through this and I really do wish you strength.

Zette