If you felt that you were not getting the whole picture, why on earth would you feel qualified to give any advice at all? Obviously any advice offered may be “counterproductive” if the facts you are relying on when offering it are not, in fact, true. That’s no reason to assume or insinuate they’re not true, when you have no reason to doubt the veracity of the person telling the story.
for what you say your situation is, and I don’t mean to take the ludicrous position of telling you about it when you know it all too well and I don’t know your situation at all.
I was trying to point out how we (you and I) had gotten into a disagreement here, where I certainly failed to behave with appropriate sensitivity to your plight (and apologies again for that) but where (I noticed) that in titling your thread, you had contributed to setting me off. My point was (and is) that until I pointed out your thread title’s harsh tone, you certainly weren’t aware that you had caused any part of the problem. (I appreciate your recognizing that now, however.) I find that interesting.
(BTW, are you saying that you misphrased what you meant to say in the thread title, or just that the thread title, while accurately conveying your tone to your ex-to-be, gets people’s hackles up?) I’ve been where you are now, and beileve me I wish I had behaved more kindly to my ex- when we were splitting up, I wish she had behaved more kindly to me, and I’m very sure our kids wish we had behaved more kindly to them. In retrospect, I could live with myself more easily if I had been too generous to her than if (as is the case) I had been not quite generous enough. If you reject everything else I’ve said, please accept that.
An excellent question, and one that might well be asked of many people who do just this. I would guess that these people don’t reflect much on the fact that they may not be getting the whole picture.
Well there’s no reason to insinuate that they are definitely not true. But the general fact that they might not be the complete picture can be worth pointing out, for the reasons given.
for what you say your situation is, and I don’t mean to take the ludicrous position of telling you about it when you know it all too well and I don’t know your situation at all.
I was trying to point out how we (you and I) had gotten into a disagreement here, where I certainly failed to behave with appropriate sensitivity to your plight (and apologies again for that) but where (I noticed) that in titling your thread, you had contributed to setting me off. My point was (and is) that until I pointed out your thread title’s harsh tone, you certainly weren’t aware that you had caused any part of the problem. (I appreciate your recognizing that now, however.) I find that interesting.
(BTW, are you saying that you misphrased what you meant to say in the thread title, or just that the thread title, while accurately conveying your tone to your ex-to-be, gets people’s hackles up?) I’ve been where you are now, and beileve me I wish I had behaved more kindly to my ex- when we were splitting up, I wish she had behaved more kindly to me, and I’m very sure our kids wish we had behaved more kindly to them. In retrospect, I could live with myself more easily if I had been too generous to her than if (as is the case) I had been not quite generous enough. If you reject everything else I’ve said, please accept that.
Not necessarily. Some advice may be appropriate, even if lacking all the details. Things such as, “See a lawyer,” and “Continue seeing a counselor, if for no other reason, for your own well-being,” I think, would be wholly appropriate.
I don’t feel that anyone has seriously doubted that problems exist in the marriage. I think, though, that one problem may have arisen from using the term “emotional abuse”–a term so nebulous it can hardly be defined accurately. That term, it seems, was a recently created, politically correct, legally acceptable, catch-all–to be used when there is nothing definitive that one could point at say “That’s what’s making me feel bad.”
Nevertheless, bodypoet perceives it. Without taking an intimate inventory of her life, none of us can know if there is anything else (in our opinions) that her husband, or bodyport herself, could/could’ve/should/should’ve done differently so that both of them could be happy at this point in their lives. I had to include both parties since, as yet, bodypoet hasn’t said that she may have contributed anything whatsoever to the breakdown of the marriage, and I don’t think every such occurrence is entirely one-sided. We do have a bit of hyperbole, however: “I do 80% of the parenting and 95% of everything else here,” and “…he is making zero effort to work on the issues that are ruining our marriage.” You may grant that, when expressions such as these are uttered, the effect is to create at least a vague sense of doubt.
So where does that leave us? For me, all I can say is that I wish everyone involved good luck.
The only bit of advice I will give is to keep the kids in mind, first and foremost, and always. Both parties should be prepared to give more than they might originally expect in order to make the kids’ transition as easy as possible.
My advice: do everything you can to work out a settlement without the use of a lawyer. If you and your husband both engage lawyers,you both will be in for a very expensive experience. If at all possible, use arbitration to decide on a separation or divorce. If both of you hire your own lawyers, it will cost you each possibly $5-10 thousand, and almost guarantee that the breakup will NOT be amicable.
You should be aware that divorce is a big business for the legal industry, and once you are in the hands of a lawyer, you will be manipulated for the benefit of your lawyer, rather than yourself. Also, the bitterness that a courtroom divorce often engenders can sour you for many years to come.
As far as the tax implications go, a good accountant is far more valuable to you than any divorce lawyer…good advice on this can save you much money and grief. So, try (with the help of an arbitrator if necessary) to work out the details between yourselves, then engage a lawyer to review the agreement for correctness, then go to court. You will save yourself a ton of money, and possibly your sanity as well.
Certainly the matter should be worked out amicably between them if it can be. But if “everything she can do to work out a settlement” includes surrendering her rights or her children’s rights, then she is far better off with a lawyer. And if he gets a lawyer, she’ll very likely need one too as without one she’ll be at a significant disadvantage. Arbitration is not a great idea for domestic cases (though mediation is), because the binding form of arbitration is not appeallable, so if you get shafted by the arbitrator (because he or she believes your husband or your wife), then you’re screwed. And the non-binding form of arbitration is a waste of money unless both parties know they both will seriously consider what the arbitrator recommends and probably agree to go along with it – unlikely for the “losing” party in a divorce case, who very often won’t do as asked (or told) without the force of a court order behind the “request.”
$5000 to $10,000 for a divorce is high but not outrageously so, depending on the number of kids, the amount of paperwork to be filed, and how acrimonious the proceedings are – in other words (no surprise here) the amount of the bill depends on how much work the case is for the lawyer. A simple divorce should only cost you one-tenth that. Obviously, it is not the laywer bills that cause the divorce to be acrimonious, it’s the acrimony in the divorce that causes the lawyer bills. Divorces that aren’t already “bitter” don’t end up in the courtroom at all.
To say that every petitioner who hires a lawyer in the course of a divorce will be “manipulated for the lawyer’s benefit and not [their] own” is a gross slander on the thousands of fine lawyers who, for whatever reason (insanity is my guess), choose to practice domestic law with all the hand-holding, cajoling, insult-taking, emergency-writ-writing nonsense that goes along with it.
To say that a good accountant is “far more valuable” than a good lawyer in such circumstances is simply ridiculous. Unless you and your spouse have significant assets (beyond a house, two cars, and a couple of retirement funds), you don’t need an accountant to tell you what you have or what you need. And see how much good your accountant does you when your visitation is denied or your child support check doesn’t come.
There are good lawyers and bad lawyers, just like there are good and bad accountants (Enron, anyone?), plumbers, doctors, and teachers. No profession has cornered the market on integrity, and no profession has a monopoly on the lack of it, either. I don’t purport to tell anyone whether they should hire a lawyer or not, but I would tell everyone to be very wary of “advice” telling you not to – especially when the potential issues in dispute include the custody and/or visitation of your children.
On this, I agree with *Jodi wholeheartedley, especially the first two sentences.
We saw the therapist today, and he is willing to go stay with a friend for 2-3 weeks, after which we’ll review things and see what our next step is. In the meantime, we will continue therapy (individually and as a couple) and will hopefully regard this as a temporary situation with the intention of reconciling when we get back on our feet and can work together.
If it does come to divorce, I’ll hire an attorney. I went through a divorce 12 years ago, and although I know the rates have certainly gone up, it cost about $500. It wasn’t terribly acrimonious, but it did require a couple of court dates and some time on my lawyer’s part. With children, visitation, a mortgage, and custody to line out, I don’t think I would dare go it alone.
For now, I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. I actually feel far more hopeful now that he is leaving than I did a few weeks ago, when there was no break in sight. I plan to spend some serious time healing myself and my relationship to whatever degree I can.
Right now, I have to find a second car for us, because I don’t want either of us to be without wheels. Now, how to do that with no money, no down payment, and no credit…that should be a trick.
Let’s see…if a ‘b’ goes in the first box, then a ‘/b’ should go in the second box. Ok, I’ve got it now.
Not to get into language wrangling again, but what makes you think it’s hyperbole? I’ve seen many a marriage (my parents’ included) where that was just the case. I’ve also read many of bodypoet’s other threads, and as long as she’s been posting here, her unhappy marriage has been an issue; her past posts about it have “documented” just those things, and though it’s not definitive proof, it certainly indicates that she’s been giving this a lot of thought and very close examination.
Anyway, bodypoet, when I saw your thread title, I thought, “Thank God!” I know you’ve been struggling with an unhappy situation for a long time and given your best to healing it. Good for you for making this difficult decision, and I wish you all the best in resolving the challenges ahead.
Beadalin, bless your li’l heart. You’ve just given me a huge verbal shoulder of support, and I really need it tonight. Thanks so much.
Re: the “hyperbole”…actually, I’d say I’m pretty darn close, although I haven’t set down with a behavior chart like I used to do with my special ed students. It’s not hard to be accurate about someone who’s not doing anything.
FTR, I think that he may–note the emphasis–may decide to really work at this and try to make some changes. My touchstone of hope right now is that in spite of all the problems, he is very, very good with the babies–sweet, loving, kind–almost always, aside from those normal parental irritable moments. If he can be this way with the kids, he can be that way with me, I believe. If he weren’t able to maintain that behavior with them, it would be a wholly different story, and I would have no choice but to accept that he just didn’t have it in him to be healthy in a relationship.
At least, that’s my theory right now. Much remains to be seen, and I will be very glad to get some time away from him to get back on my feet emotionally.
bodypoet, my heart goes out to you. I’m in kind of a similar sit. I wish you the best.
Rysdad, if you only knew.
Jodi, my my best friend is a lawyer (and a darn good one!) and many of my closer business associates are lawyers, and for all I know you could be a lawyer (it’s a sad commentary on my social life, I know). While it is true that divorces “get nasty” primarily from the motivations of the contending parties, (IMO) the nature and goal of a healthy percentage of the lawyers specialzing in divorce is typically not (initially) to reach an amicable settlement, but mainly to go to war on the other spouse and obtain a “win” for their client.
As to whether this is simply the nature of the legal system or modern divorce in the US I cannot say, but having been through the process and watched my ex-wife burn through her 5,000 divorce war chest she had secretly assembled in the last year of our marriage, based on her first atty's promises that I would be paying far more than the state reccommended amounts because well...just cause, and then spending another 4,000 of her father’s money to have her second atty tell her my initial offer made a year earlier was as good as it was going to get… well having watched the Kabuki theatre that is Divorce American Style, forgive me if I am somewhat cynical about the good intentions of divorce attorneys.
It has been my experience that a good number of them, especially the ones representing upper middle class women, churn and make work like crazy to maximize billable hours, dragging out simple issues interminably and keeping their clients dangling with absurd promises of big paydays to be uncovered.
Over drinks with several attorneys I was told that most competent divorce attys can ballpark within a few percentage points where the financial and property issues of a divorce settlement will wind up within a week or so of receiving valid financial data from both parties. The rest of the sturm and drang process is to make the client (typically the woman) think she has “gotten her money’s worth”. There are domestic/divorce situations where an attorney needs to go to war, but they relatively few in number compared to the divorces that could be settled amicably with a mediator and an accountant.
Bodypoet, in all of my interactions with you here you have been a very sweet woman, and I hope for you and your family only the best. Good luck in sorting this all out.
I noticed that you mentioned in your last update that you would continue with counselling, both as a couple and individually. Is your husband actively involved in individual counselling. If he is emotionally abusive there is anger in him that is being directed at you (and your children?) and he needs help in disposing of this. Otherwise the couples counselling won’t work in the long run.
I know that finances are tight for you, so I hope that you can work this out without compiling huge legal bills. But don’t let that be the overriding motivator for you. Eg, don’t let the fear of a legal mess keep you from taking care of yourself. I fear this will be very tough, and as you can see we’ll be here for you.
ASTRO –
“Some of my best friends are lawyers” . . . uh oh. 
I am. I don’t do domestic work, though.
:: Shrug :: You’re certainly entitled to you “O.” I’m not sure what you consider a “healthy percentage” and I see no value in arguing over it. I never said every lawyer was a saint. I said there were good ones and bad ones, just like in every other profession.
I would say, however, that if your ex burned through 9 grand and 2 lawyers in the process of getting one divorce, it is very gallant of you to blame not her but her lawyers.
It is also true that most experienced attorneys can place a maximal value a claim – be it property damage, personal injury, or community property (divorce) – once they have access to the relevant financial information. That rarely if ever translates, however, into agreeing with the other side on what is actually owed. In other words, it is one thing to understand the pie; it is quite another to agree on how to split it. The “sturm und drang” is caused by over-emotional people who are not interested in fairness or equity, but rather are interested in screwing their ex to the wall – making sure he never sees the kids, making sure she never gets a dime, paying that bastard back for cheating on me, paying that bitch back for leaving me, etc. etc. etc. They are a “large percentage” of a divorce lawyer’s clientele – unfortunately, if not surprisingly, since the best case scenario for a divorce is untangling two people who no longer care for each other (or at least one of them doesn’t), while the worst case scenario is two people who loathe each other (or at least one of them does). That’s why I don’t practice that type of law, except pro bono, and I try to stay away from it even then. But I have done them, and I can tell you that if you think the acrimony of the vast majority of them originates with the lawyers you are dreaming.
In any event, you don’t need a lawyer just “to go to war.” You need a lawyer to make sure your rights and the rights of your kids are protected. Especially if the other party has a lawyer; then you’re at an obvious and serious disadvantage if you do not. A lawyer will draft the court documents appropriately, review the settlement to make sure it is both legal and fair, and look for little things a layman might not think to – like, for example, making sure visitation also includes a fair apportionment of the kids’ travel costs, or making sure a child who is supposed to pursue after school activities (like sports or music lessons) will also be provided with the equipment to do so – or that the costs will be apportioned fairly. I’m not blowing smoke to make work for the fraternity (which I consider highly unethical). I’m a lawyer myself, and, if I had kids, I wouldn’t get divorced without the assistance of a lawyer – and I mean someone other than me.
You may disagree, as you are of course free to, but unless you are a lawyer too I daresay I know more domestic lawyers than you and have been involved in more divorce cases than you as well (though never my own, never having been married). And I am certainly within my rights to explain why I think advice is given is bad, and I feel very strongly that advising a person to try to navigate a divorce, with kids, without a lawyer is in most cases going to be bad advice and in some cases very bad advice indeed. As usual, YMMV.
Shibb, thank you for your kind thoughts.
Yes, he attends individual counseling as well as going with me in our couples sessions. (I do the same.) He hasn’t been going for long–a few months at most–so he is really just starting to scratch the surface with a lot of his anger and where it’s coming from. He manages to maintain very well with the babies, although he is sometimes very impatient with the older boys. For all that, he saves the worst of it for me. Maybe that’s because I don’t have anyone to intervene in my behalf the way my kids do, or because it is so easy to fall into the trap of not being an advocate for oneself, when you can just shut up and take it.
With the help of the therapist, I’ve drawn some very definite boundaries. He’ll have to observe them in order to save our marriage…I’m hopeful that he can do that, but I’m also realistic. Right now it’s touch and go, and I will just have to continue to be patient and do the best I can.
Thanks so much for being here for me…I don’t have tons of support nearby, so the SD is kind of a lifesaver right now.
Isn’t it though! She’s not paranoid and irrational … she’s ummm… just misunderstood… yeah that’s it… and mislead by those evil lawyers! It’s all their fault for leading her astray! Must remind self …all their fault… all their fault. 
In looking at the bigger picture I’ll give you that one. But is is still my opinion that in a number of cases the perpetuation of the acrimony is orchestrated to last as long as the checkbook does. Maybe I am completely wrong and it’s all driven by the client, and my impression that my ex would have listened to her lawyer’s advice is no more realistic than the odd notion that she should have listened to mine when I told her to save the money for the kid’s college fund and work with me to be reasonable.
About a month ago I packed up four out of five of the heathens and headed to my mothers for a few days. (oldest is his from prior marriage)
It was a nightmare.
I didn’t have the option of asking him to leave since we rent the upstairs of his parents house.
And I left with no vehicle since mine has been broke down for a little over a year with no effort to get it repaired. Transmission down and tons of money to fix, but even at that rate no effort to save the money to get it fixed or even look into if it is the whole tranny or just a sensor.
No babysitter for the heathens since I work weekends and he works week days and so we have never needed a sitter it worked wonderfully. And even if I had a sitter how would I get said heathens there with no vehicle?
I love my husband dearly but we have major issues.
The emotional abuse is at high levels.
That last straw when I left was when he called me a stupid b*tch and tossed a full soda can spraying me with soda and leaving a nice bruise on my shoulder. Not meant to hit me but it did all the same. Never happened before, usually just names and alot of yelling.
Dinner must be on the table by 5 (not an issue) but some nights especially busy with the heathens it just doesn’t get done on time and the way I get treated afterwards is something else.
I have to aske before I get to leave the house, and then I don’t get out until after the heathens are in bed.
I really have little self-esteem left, but I like Bodypoet and Persephone and a few other here put on a good show of it.
I’ve been called fat (165), lazy, ignorant, and a whole slew of wonderful things.
You see, his mother raised five children and worked and the house was clean and the children were clean and dinner was on the table by five every night. But then again she was married to an abusive alcoholic and her generation was raised to believe the man is always right and womans life is to serve.
I guess he expected me to be the same way.
But, I’m back after two days away because I just couldn’t do it on my own.
Chances are that he will end up reading this because he has been checking the history of the computer and something about keystrokes (?).
Right about now I’m not too worried about it. I’m tired of being treated like a second thought until it comes to sex.
I was not put on this earth to serve him and be a shut in just because we got married and are parents.
I did have a few friends but they all finally quit calling and asking me to do things because I can never do things at normal hours.
I work 30 to 40 hours over the weekends and the house is always clean and the heathens are well taken care of. Don’t I deserve a bit of time to myself?
Do I deserve to be told that my job is worthless because it is only three days? I work at Oscar Mayer and bring home in three days just as much as he does all week if not more. So what makes my job worthless?
I go to work on sunday afternoon at 1pm and get home around 5am Monday and then stay awake all day Monday and by 8pm I’m half asleep and getting bitched at for it.
Our youngest son (the ill one) shows me no respect. Well, why should he since he sees how his father treats me?
I’m guess I’m telling you all this because I am hoping that Bodypoet makes a go of things. Either that they work out and run smoothly, or if they split and things run better for all conserned.
I know my story and others go the same way for both sexes. I have seen women emotionally abuse men as well. I’m just giving half of my story as a woman dealing with this.
It’s not easy.
I have to think about my heathens.
Do I stay here so they have a roof over their heads and food in their stomaches and are able to see both parents everyday?
Or, do I strike out on my own so that my heathens have an uncertain future but don’t have to deal with watch mom be degraded at every turn and possibly see this as a normal way of life?
Good luck to all those dealing with something or another similar, and if anybody wishes to e-mail me just to vent and get things off their chests please by all means feel free! You will have to put something in the subject about being from here so I don’t lose it in my junk mail filter though.
As many other here I have learned that SDMB is a wonderful place with a great sence of community. We have our ups and downs but such is the way with friends.
Oh Kricket. I’m so sorry. 
If your question was not just a rhetorical one, yes, I think that you would end up healthier in the long run to get the hell out and struggle like crazy to make it on your own. You don’t deserve to be treated this way. Your kids don’t deserve to see you being abused, and whether he admits it or not, he IS being abusive.
I’m gonna email you, okay?
{{{Kricket}}}
karol