Kricket and bodypoet
I wish I knew what to say other than take care of yourselves and your little ones.
Hell no.
And that goes for anyone – male/female, married/single, gay/straight/bi/whatever – who is in a relationship where you are not being valued for who you are. We all have our rough spots where we take advantage of our loved ones. But that shouldn’t be the status quo.
I hope things work out as well as possible.
Um. Okay, I’m going to go lick my perfect boyfriend all over.
Please, people I admire and care for, please take very good care of yourselves, and your kids. Don’t under estimate the damage that can be done to a child by watching abuse. Know that there are resources out there that are made for these types of situations. Shelters, assistance, friends, family.
For those of you who will accept them, my prayers go with you. You all get hugs whether you want them or not.
Darlings. Both of you.
I have no advice, no insight, nothing to say that will help. I wish VERY much that I did.
I just want to say that I am sending you both my best love and prayers and positive healing thoughts…for whatever makes you and your children happy and emotionally healthy.
My prayers that you both find a way to work things out with your husbands that allow your children to feel loved, happy and secure. And that you find that as well.
Much Love,
Cheri
Karol, the first time I replied to your post on the SDMB, it was for a computer problem that you were facing. I remember sitting with you on MSN and remotely instructing you to fix it step-by-step.
This is the second time I am replying to a post from you. Unfortunately, this time around, I have no step-by-step guide, no expertise, no knowledge of what it takes. I wish I did; I wish there was some quick-fix solution. Sadly, there isn’t; but you know I’ll be there to cheer you up, however little I can, when we meet online.
May your strength be an inspiration to your children. May your candle light up their lives. And may the wick burn ever brighter…
We’ll be here if you need us.
**pseudotriton, ** I’ve never been married, but I am a child of divorced parents (I was 9-10 years old when Dad moved out).
Let’s remove all this B.S. about who is blaming whom for what for a moment, shall we? I, for one, am SOOOOO glad my parents managed to split in a relatively civil manner rather than duking it out in court. (The post-divorce stuff wasn’t nearly as clean, but that’s another story. Suffice it to say that my experience taught me that BOTH parties need competent legal counsel, because they may not even realize what they’re giving up, not only for themselves, but for the kids. I would have had a very different college education if my mom hadn’t had a crappy lawyer, but that’s a rant for another day.)
Really, if there is tension, emotional violence, yelling, or whatever you want to call it in the house, it will IMHO have a far greater, worse, and longer-lasting effect on the kids than if the parents separate and cool off. This was true not only in my own family, but in the families of a number of my friends whose parents divorced at various stages of their growing up.
The family that fared by far the worst was the one where the parents decided to “stay together for the sake of the children” until the kids were in high school. The kids are now in their 30’s and are still screwed up in the relationship department; they have no conception of normalcy. Kids need good relationship models, and it sounds like **bodypoet’s ** situation isn’t likely to provide one in its present condition. So her interests and the kids’ are far from being divergent.
**pseudotriton, ** I’ve never been married, but I am a child of divorced parents (I was 9-10 years old when Dad moved out).
Let’s remove all this B.S. about who is blaming whom for what for a moment, shall we? I, for one, am SOOOOO glad my parents managed to split in a relatively civil manner rather than duking it out in court. (The post-divorce stuff wasn’t nearly as clean, but that’s another story. Suffice it to say that my experience taught me that BOTH parties need competent legal counsel, because they may not even realize what they’re giving up, not only for themselves, but for the kids. I would have had a very different college education if my mom hadn’t had a crappy lawyer, but that’s a rant for another day.)
Really, if there is tension, emotional violence, yelling, or whatever you want to call it in the house, it will IMHO have a far greater, worse, and longer-lasting effect on the kids than if the parents separate and cool off. This was true not only in my own family, but in the families of a number of my friends whose parents divorced at various stages of their growing up.
The family that fared by far the worst was the one where the parents decided to “stay together for the sake of the children” until the kids were in high school. The kids are now in their 30’s and are still screwed up in the relationship department; they have no conception of normalcy. Kids need good relationship models, and it sounds like **bodypoet’s ** situation isn’t likely to provide one in its present condition. So her interests and the kids’ are far from being divergent.
Eva Luna, thank you for your insight from a kid-of-divorced-parents perspective. It helps. One of the reasons I’ve stuck it out so long this far is that I divorced my first husband when my older two were babies, and I didn’t want my little ones to go through the same things my older ones did.
But when I step back and look at the situation, I think a divorce couldn’t be any harder on anyone emotionally. I look at my darling baby girl, and I so do NOT want her to grow up and be treated this way. And my sweet baby boy–I do NOT want him to grow up and treat his partner this way either. The older boys are unhappy, I’m unhappy, and my husband is unhappy.
Whether it will improve with continued therapy or not, I simply can’t even predict at this point.
xash, you have been so kind and sweet. Thank you so much…you and all the other Dopers have been wonderful.
Update-wise: We finally got him some wheels, which promptly broke down. Figures. But it’s going into the shop today, so hopefully he will have a car to drive. He plans to move in with his friends this weekend and stay “for a while.”
In the interim, he has been very, very sweet, kind, courteous, etc. Honeymoon phase, I know, but I’ll take it for now. I think he’s hoping I’ll change my mind, but I haven’t–this is sort of a last shot at saving our marriage, and to let him stay now would be ensuring a divorce sooner than later. So I’m hanging strong and keeping safe, and focusing on the kids and my own health as much as I can.
I can’t tell you how much the support I find here means to me right now. {{{hugs all dopers within reach}}}
Bodypoet, I’m so sorry for your awful situation. I want to chime in a bit.
Like Eva Luna, I’m the kid of divorced parents; like her, I think it’s one of the best things my parents ever did.
It was horrible at the time – I barely remember any of the two weeks following when my mom first left – and there were some terrible moments later on, terrible moments spread out over several years. Until the night my mother left, I’d had no clue at all that separation was a possibility.
But now my mother is so much saner than she was, so much happier. My father is still something of a genial jerk, but at least he’s not mistreating my mother like that.
One thing worth knowing: my parents promised us a civil separation, promised us that we wouldn’t get caught up in it. When my father told us (manipulating us, I can see in hindsight) that my mother had sued for custody of us, it felt like a huge betrayal. If things don’t work out between the two of you, do everything you can to resist letting your children be pawns in this struggle. This is one area that I’d recommend going against a lawyer’s advice on: if your lawyer tells you to sue for custody as a maneuver to increase child support payments, say no.
Best of luck, though, either way. And, of course, I recognize that my situation was surely different from your kids’, so my advice might not apply.
And Kricket, my god! I hope you’re able to find your way out of that terrible situation!
Daniel
bodypoet, much love and support. And to Kricket, too. All I have to say is, if the emotional abuse is there and if he’s doing nothing to change his habits, then please take this adult-kid-of-divorce’s reassurance that yes divorce is easier than a lifetime of emotional abuse. My father was asked to move out 3+ years ago, and the divorce is finalized before this year’s out, I think. I’m the oldest of my siblings and have been blessed enough to get to learn what normal healthy happy relationships look like over these past three years. I honestly had no idea that the way life was at home wasn’t normal.
Do what you think is right. And you may want to consider asking your boys if they would like to go to counseling too? I don’t know their ages, but I do know that it’s awfully hard to turn off that little voice in your head that continually says you aren’t good enough, you aren’t smart enough, you can’t do anything right that results from taking emotional abuse for too long.
It’s hard, but you will know whether it is best to continue the marriage or end it. Trust yourself.
{{{bodypoet}}}
{{{Kricket}}}
{{{Francesca}}}
{{{Dragongirl}}}
I ,too, have little imput to provide, save that I hope that all of you courageous ladies (and any others out there here on the Boards suffering in silence) know that you have the support of so many of us here. As I’ve stated a number of times previously, it is a blessing to be able to share with such a caring community. I hope that we Dopers have provided you all with a tether to emotional sanity.
I haven’t been the ideal husband myself at times…Mrs. Chalupa puts up with a lot of crap from me. I think that there are a number of us whose own lives may parallel some of the stories being told here, who may even now be reexamining their own behavior and who, like Medea’s Child, may rush home to their loved ones with a hug (or more). For this reminder to all of us to appreciate the good fortune many of us do have, I thank you.
Stand tall ladies.
And thank you, fellow Dopers…you’re the best in what we humans have to offer.
Be aware that a divorce agreement, whether written by the best Manhattan lawyer, or by Dewey, Cheatem& Howe, is just a piece of paper. having your future relationship details spelled out in legalese means nothing, if both parties are not willing to follow them. You can have it written that your ex-spouse can see the children from 5:00 PM Friday, to 7:00 PM Sunday-that doesn’t mean anything! If you think a piece of paper is going to make it all right, then you have another thing coming.
As with all agreements, posession is nine tenths of the law-so make SURE that whatever you agree on IS WHAT YOU can live with, not what your lawyer says you should. That is why going to a neutral party (a mediator or arbitrator) is such a good idea-such a person can provide a neutral ground for you and your spouse to discuss your children’s future…having two lawyers fight over the deatils solves nothing, and usually makes things worse.
Actually, I AM a Manhattan lawyer… 
True enough in some ways, but not others. Here’s a real-life example (from my life): my parents’ divorce decree stated that each parents was to provide for the children’s college education “to the best of his/her ability.”
Now Dad is a guy who will do anything a legal authority tells him to do, but frequently nothing more, and was never very flexible about it. He made roughly four times what Mom did (he’s an engineer with an MBA; at the time, she was a paralegal for Legal Assistance, which meant she worked her ass off for almost no money). However, as the divorce degree didn’t specify how the determination of “the best of one’s ability” was to be made, Dad thought it was fair to split all outstanding college expenses down the middle.
Well, let’s just say that one’s disposable income at $18k/year is rather minimal when one has two kids and lives ina major metro area. The end result in my case sucked (lawsuits between my parents throughout the time I was in college, with the results that Dad alone spent more on legal fees that he spent on my education, plus he subpoenaed me, which wasn’t exactly fun).
However, I was a good student and had full tuition grants to a good school, so the amount they were fighting about wasn’t enough to keep me from most of what I wanted to do…I just ended up making up most of Mom’s half through working more hours and extreme frugality. (Although it would have been nice to have the choice of the other schools where I’d been accepted - Georgetown and U. of Chicago - but who had based my aid package on Dad’s income rather than on what he’d been contributing in child support; I knew there was no way in Hell I’d get that kind of cash from him or be able to make up the difference myself. Kind of ironic after his working-class parents put him through Princeton, even after he went on academic probation. Not that I’m bitter or anything.)
In the end, though, I got my degree from a good school. My sister, however, was never the greatest student, so her choices were essentially a) take out loans up the wazzoo to go to a mediocre-to-crappy school; or b) work and go part-time (whcih is what she did). 14 years later, she has about 2 years’ worth of credit in avariety of majors at something like 4 different schools, and it’s not looking like she’ll ever get her act together to finish.
Moral of the story? A well-drafted document can eliminate a lot of confusion and bullshit in some situations, and is much more enforceable, especially in this day and age of non-custodial parents having their wages garnished and drivers’ professional licenses suspended for non-payment of support. And reasonable people are much more likely to agree on what needs to happen if they agree on what the instruction document means.