I want a woman's opinions on these often made comments on females

In My Humble Opinion
41

Exactly. I hear this all the time on my college campus, and almost always there’s some reason for it. I once knew a man who was 300 lbs and almost never bathed and then acted shocked, shocked that women wouldn’t give him the time of day. I can’t count the times I’ve said, in my head, following a comment like this, "maybe you should bathe, or wash your greasy hair, or get some clothes from this era. Or STOP whining!

Another reason, I suspect, that we women hate this kind of comment is that it is almost always said as an indictment against women, rather than a genuine complaint. It’s always the women’s fault, because they like “assholes.” It’s almost never about the undesirability of the person making the statement.

42

Yeah, that pretty much nails it on the head for me. It seems like self-proclaimed nice guys are never unable to get a date because they’re spineless wimps with so little self-image that they’re willing to completely remake themselves to a woman’s specifications, or because they’re whiners, or because they’ve got a really annoying laugh, or because they breathe through their mouths, or whatever it is that makes them unattractive. No, it’s always because women are such shallow, stupid, illogical bitches that they only pay any attention to assholes. Basically, you’re getting the double whammy of refusing to take responsibility for your situation and casting baseless aspersions on someone else. Very bad form, both of them, and when you put them together you have the most powerful woman repellent ever.

For the record, I’d like to point out to the OP that most women have no problem with a guy saying, “I’m having some trouble meeting people,” or commenting that it seems like guys he thinks are jerks have women all over the place. Provided of course, that it’s offered as a simple observation and left at that. When you get into trouble is when you start enumerating the reasons you’re a nice guy, and why women ought to be all over you, and how those jerks don’t deserve to have women refrain from kicking them in the balls, much less go out with them, and women say they want nice guys, but we all know they’re lying and/or delusional because what they really want is jerks. This is especially a problem when they guy in question thinks he’s a nice guy because he buys flowers and holds doors and pretends to be interested when she’s talking and shit. (No, really, I’ve had a guy tell me exactly that before. And yes, he seemed honestly baffled and resentful that women weren’t lining up around the block to date him.) Or when he thinks that nice guy= doormat. Those guys really make me want to bludgeon somebody. Nice men can still have opinions. Really. Swear to God.

43

IMHO, all three statements are true for about 90% of the female population.
Unfortunately.

44

See, I completely agree with you here. I was a wimpy, shy guy who always thought of himself as a “nice guy” but never had a girlfriend until I was 21, and induced her to dump me 2 1/2 years later by being such a moping whiner. Now that I’ve finally come to understand the viewpoint you express, I’ve been able to initiate a relationship with a girl I’d been interested in for quite a while, and it’s going well.

BUT… the “big but”… I really had to unlearn everything I thought I’d been reliably, accurately taught about what women want. I think the problem with “nice guys” and the viewpoint you express here is that it’s easy to pick up exactly the opposite message. Think about romantic movies, fairy tales, the lists women give about the qualities they want in a guy. It’s easy to get the impression that women want a guy who would totally subordinate his life to hers. Opening doors for her, pulling out chairs for her, throwing his coat down in the mud for her to walk over, carrying her books for her, getting down on one knee to propose to her, bringing her flowers, surprising her by meeting here at unexpected places or in unexpected times which may require sacrifices to his own schedule, being “sensitive”, crying at sad movies… all these things are overwhelmingly presented as positive. Do you see how it’s easy for shy guys to grow up with the idea that women want a guy who would say “I’ll do anything for you, I love you more than life itself, I just want to be with you 24/7, I promise I’ll never leave your side, you’re so sweet and beautiful and wonderful that I can’t imagine life without you, you’re my everything, what do you want to name our first child?” and mean it?

And therefore, it’s perplexing to such guys to see women completely passing them over in favor of (guys who look to us like) arrogant boors who snub them in favor of going out with their buddies. Now, I know that having other things to do, like going out with buddies, other than waiting on her hand and foot, is actually attractive, just like that “confidence” factor. But criminy, nobody ever tells us that! They just let us grow up with the impression that women WANT a pushover.

45

This has been an amazingly educational thread, all around.

Another self-proclaimed “nice guy” here, although at the age of 26, I’m finally realizing that I should concern myself more with my hapiness, and not try to subsume my life to somebody else. There is definately a strong correlation between “nice guy” and shyness, but you gotta step up to the plate sometime. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that women will almost never make the first move. And yes, this means engaging in actions that we may find assholish - you have to go talk to the girl at the bar, and run the risk that you’re really really bugging her. You have to ask that friend out, even though she may really really just want to be friends, and be embarassed.

This is a different from people who whine about why they can’t get dates. It’s the simple fact that, to pursue women, you have to make some women uncomfortable in order to find the occasional few that would actually welcome a conversation with you. And that’s hard, for obvious reasons.

46

er, sorta, Karl.

I think women do want to be the most important thing in their men’s lives. But they want that to be because they themselves are of merit, not because the guy has nothing else of any value.

So, in your example, no woman is usually terribly thrilled that her guy chooses to spend time with his buddies rather than her (although she may enjoy the occasional time off herself). But she doesn’t want him to always be with her because he doesn’t have anything else to do.

Let’s face it, folks. A lot of what we consider “romantic love” in out society has more to do with ego than it does with real love. This is something that some, but by no means all, of us mature out of, and I suspect getting past it is one of the main keys to a happy and long-lasting marriage. But in its early (and especially youthful) stages, romantic love has at least as much to do with what your interest and how you express it make the other person feel about him or herself as it does about how you treat the other person or the qualities you personally offer.

So if you have a lot of other options, and you still prefer his or her company, that says something about his or her worth that cannot be said by someone who sacrifices nothing to share his or her company.

And Tower? Very few women are rendered truly uncomfortable by a polite invitation. The real risk is not making her uncomfortable so much as simply the risk of putting yourself out there and chancing being turned down. But, hey, you survive.

47

I think we have very different definitions of rearranging one’s whole life. You’re talking for the most part about minor gestures (flowers, holding doors, pulling out chairs, etc.), and I’m talking about changing your life–your friends, your job, your hobbies, your opinions, etc. Bringing someone a bunch of daisies once in a while doesn’t fundamentally change who you are. It doesn’t subsume your identity at all. Ditching your friends on a permanent basis, giving up things you find fulfilling because she doesn’t like them, adopting hobbies that don’t do anything for you because she likes them, that is subsuming your life to hers. That’s not attractive. That’s not confident. That’s not being a nice guy. That’s being a mirror, an empty reflection of what you think she wants to see rather than a person in your own right.

Yes, it’s nice when a guy brings you flowers and opens doors for you and all that, but I think a lot of guys (and some women) make the mistake of conflating nice behavior with being a nice person. There’s a not-very-subtle but vastly important difference. Just because someone buys you presents and takes the day off work to be with you and always helps you into your coat, that doesn’t mean he isn’t a complete, irredeemable assmonkey. Just because a guy never thinks to bring you flowers or hold doors for you doesn’t mean he isn’t a nice guy. He’s probably not a particularly romantic guy, but romantic != nice.

And I have to ask, didn’t anybody ever tell you movies were just make-believe? :smiley: I’m joking, but I’m also serious. Movies aren’t an accurate depiction of what people think and feel and do and want in real life, because they’re not real life. Sure, in movies women want someone who will make them the center of their universe. In real life, though, being someone’s sun and moon and stars is an unfair burden to put on anybody. Being solely responsible for another human being’s happiness and fulfillment in life…that’s too much pressure for most people.

48

Some women may want some these things, but NOT ALL THE FREAKING TIME! The occasional romantic gesture is one thing, and more romantic for being occasional, and unexpected. The things you describe above would make me feel hounded by a needy person severely lacking in self-esteem, who clearly had no sensitivity to my needs.

One of my friends has a boyfriend like this. It does him great disservice. The benefits of being with someone who loves her, and great sex, are rapidly being outweighed by the overpowering un-sexiness of a needy man.

I think the problem is that these “nice guys” picking up their cues from fictionalised, romantic stereotypes rather than from the real world.

(Disclaimer:None of this is supposed to be a personal dig at you, Karl)

Most women, just like men, want to be treated with respect. That doesn’t mean she wants to be regarded as some lamebrained china doll who can’t do anything for herself. Nor does it mean she wants to be treated like shit.

If you think being a nice guy isn’t working, don’t presume that it’s not the “nice” bit that’s wrong. Of course women want to be around a decent human being. But they also want to feel they’re with someone who has some idea of what they’re feeling. If she looks less than thrilled when you turn up at her place of work every day with a rose between your teeth, you don’t have to turn into an asshole. You just have to get rid of the damn rose, and stop harrassing her. True niceness is about finding out what works for someone else, not persisting in your pre-concieved notions of what women want.

(And on preview, I agree with CrazyCatLady, as usual).

49

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Right, but what I’m saying is that if you’re a shy nerd who doesn’t get out much and forms your views of the world based on movies, :wink: it’s easy to make the mistake of thinking that all of those things are on the same spectrum, and that something big is better than something small, so therefore, if minor gestures are good, rearranging your entire life to make it revolve around her is even better! Again, NOW I don’t see it that way, but I’d bet most of us Spineless Wimpy Mama’s Boys[sub]TM[/sub] who complain about women not going for “nice guys like us” are making that mistake. And it’s an easy one to make, when one hears an awful lot about women wanting guys to treat them like princesses, but rarely hears about what exactly would constitute taking that too far.

[GalaxyQuest]
We have received the historical documents!
[/GalaxyQuest]

I agree, but spineless wimpy faux-nice-guys are just forgetting to look at it from that angle. We’re thinking “hey, I’m willing to wait on her hand and foot. Who wouldn’t want that? What could be better than having an SO whose entire life was dedicated to you in every way?”

And on preview, I should probably say in response to zephyrine that I’m merely trying to explicate a point of view, not endorsing it. I used to think this way, but no longer do.

50

Good point, and I don’t mean that what I said was always true. I was thinking specifically about meat-market type bar situations, where women seem to be very much on the defensive, since they’ve been fending off drunk idiots all night. But that’s more of a problem with the environment.

Regardless, it’s never easy. I find it very difficult to take a rejection as “no big deal.” Comes with practice, I suppose.

51

That strikes me as having some real truth to it. No one wants someone whose entire world depends on them - the woman (or man, as the case may be, because it goes both ways) doesn’t want the responsibility, and no one wants a partner who’s not bringing their own stuff to the relationship.

52

KarlWinslow, you’re older than your years. Some very astute observations there, some that I still hadn’t made until recently. And I’m 38!

I think you’re right about what we’re “taught”. And I’m willing to bet that a lot of us guys were “taught” by our mothers. How many of our fathers (assuming that we had a father at home) actually sat us down (figuratively or literally) and explained to us how to attract a woman? Or at the very least, how he attracted our mother? I know mine never did.

Instead, I learned from my mother that I was “so handsome!” Of course, I eventually realized that all mothers think their sons are handsome, so this didn’t give me any edge. I also learned from my mother that I just had to be a “gentleman”. Being a handsome gentleman was all I needed to have girls falling at my feet. And so, I became a gentleman, and took her word that I was handsome. Look at the good that has done me!

And as far as why my mom was attracted to my dad - it apparently had nothing to do (according to Mom) with his self-confidence. Rather, she was attracted to him because his father was the opposite of her father. My mom’s dad was a frequently-unemployed alcoholic, while my dad’s dad was a stable man who provided well for his family. For years, that is the exact reason my mom has given for what attracted her to my dad.

Fathers, teach your sons, because their mothers are going to send them down the wrong path :wink:

53

On the subject of illogical thought, I find I agree that logic is as present in one gender as it is lacking in the other. Which is which, I leave to your capable musings.

I do, however, whole-heartedly agree with whomever made the comparison between linear thinking (Train-track mind) and intuitive thinking (Spiderweb-brain). For my own self, I guess I find linear thinking to be a little confining, but if you need me to give you a linear breakdown of the conclusion that my web-brain draws, I can do it. Do you really need me to do that? Please say no. :wink:

On the subject of confidence vs assholes, I don’t much care for assholes. I do like a self-confident man. Recently, a trainee at work told me how very intimidating I can be, which I have since confirmed with my close friends. Most guys don’t approach me, because I refuse to dumb down for anyone, and I act like I am entitled to the space which I occupy. It is going to take a fair bit of self-confidence and persistence to make that effort. My overall attitude towards dating adds to that: I don’t have a lot of spare time, and I feel that (courtesy of Gaven de Becker’s book, The Gift of Fear) it is not my job to qualify the man for the position of boyfriend, it is the man’s job. Cold? Maybe. I have my reasons.

On the subject of attraction vs availability, I can’t explain the phenomenon well, but I recently had an experience which may help shed some light. I spent the weekend at a friend’s home in a small town in northern BC. I went knowing that I could flirt with anyone I wanted, because I do not indulge in long-distance flings, or casual sex, and therefore there was very little risk in being the flirt I am not normally in my professional life. The result was that men of all shapes and sizes came out of the woodwork at me. Only the very very drunk guy was offended at my limitations, and the remainder were satisfyingly flirty. I came back feeling relaxed and refreshed, and very comfortable in my own skin, due in no small part to all the risk-free flirting.

54

One of the nicest qualities in my nice guy is that he encourages me to do those things which make me happy. My time is my own to spend as I please. For me that is a biggie.

The examples from your own post that I listed were the ones in which you were blaming women for something that men had control over. That was when you were playing “See What You Made Me Do.”

Sexual harassment laws are intended to stop harassment – not to keep someone from asking a woman out once. If the woman you asked out or the manager she complained to misunderstood the law, that is not the fault of the women and men who worked to pass legislation that is designed to protect both women and men from harassment. Surely you are not implying that you were made to comply with the law against your will.

Even if what you said were true, how is this the fault of women? Most elementary school teachers are female, but they can neither diagnose ADHD nor prescribe medications.

Resorting to hyperbole to support your claims undermines your points.

Naturally, personal experiences affect our biases. But if you are having mostly negative experiences with women and you are 38 years old, you might want to consider the common denominator in all of those experiences. Since other people do have successful relationships with women, then they are not likely to be the source of the problem.

No more college football or men’s basketball? You would think that it would have been in the news. Meanwhile, the Lady Vols are the pride of UT.

55

JoeSki, I live several hundred miles away from you, so you don’t have to worry about competition, unless you’re looking for long-distance romance. :smiley:

I also want to say that I think shy guys are very sexy. I’m pretty shy myself (except online) but I find that when I’m interested in someone who is shy, I make myself make the first move. I have to say that it’s really difficult. How people have the courage to ask others out, I’ll never know. I find it pretty scary.

56

I’m a guy, I’m nice, polite, curtious, funny, semi intelligent, fairly mature, and sincere. I’m also at times arogant, stubborn, opinionated, unfair and terribly sarcastic. I used to see myself as a nice guy…but then I wised up. The truth is, I’m a lot more complicated than that and so is every other guy.

I agree whole heartedly that the “Nice Guy” label is a cop out and unfair to women. To say that they are attracted to assholes is to say they enjoy being treated like shit.

However, I do believe that girls mistake such things as aloofness, and arogance as confidence.

As far as the bar scene goes, you really do need to be aggressive. Everyone there is automatically thrown into a superfical state of mind, and image becomes everything. Its kind of like mating rituals amongst wild animals. The most agressive males get to mate. the others do the walk of shame. I’ll be the first to say its not fair, but then again, I’m not the aggressive type. I’ll never be that forward.

Of course, this only seems to happen in bars and clubs. I never feel as though I have to be overly aggressive if I meet a girl casually, in a grocery store line up, at work or through a mutual aquenience. If there is an attraction and a few common interests, your set.

I hate to say this, but I think a lot of these so called nice guys, really want to be the arogant players, but don’t know how. All the rest( including those already posted) I would say just need to stay away from the bar/club scene.

57

I have a female friend – a stunningly beautiful woman, who is regularly approached by men. She has a different take on this entire “a**hole” business.

She agrees that women like confidence; however, she disagrees with those who say that women go for a**holes because they’re confident. Rather, in her judgment, women think they sense confidence in these guys, when they’re often the most insecure of human beings. (Heck, that’s one reason why many of them act like jerks in the first place!)

One day, I told her about an SDMB thread wherein someone said, “We women know confidence when we see it!” She shook her head and said, “That’s not true. We women think we can recognize a confident man, but we’re very often deceived. I’ve seen it happen too many times.”

“The problem,” she said, “isn’t that the jerks are more confident. The problem is that they’re better at deceiving other people.”

58

I don’t think that women think any more illogically than men. As far as I know, I’ve never started had a conversation and reached a conclusion that’s so far away from the original conversation as to be completely unrecognizeable. However, I will admit that, as a woman, I sometimes read a little more into a conversation than is actually present. Usually this happens when I’m already in an argument though, and I always realize what I’m doing. That doesn’t always stop me from getting really worked up, but I know what I’m doing and I do make an effort to cut it out because I know it’s not fair, and it’s not productive.

As far as assholes, I’ve definitely dated a couple. One boyfriend abused me, and another was into classical music and actually quizzed me on it! :eek: He’d stick a CD in the CD player and say “what period is this?” “What key is it written in?” “Who’s the composer?” It was really annoying, and that relationship was just doomed to failure, as was the one with the abuser. But I don’t think that all women are overall predisposed to date assholes. If you believe that, then you could also say the same about men: What is it that makes so many men love bitchy, pretty women? I used to work for a firm where all the guys went for our stick-thin, cute admin, even though she was notorious for making their secretaries cry and mouthing off to the attorneys. So I think that generalization goes both ways.

Women are attracted to men with girlfriends? I’ve never noticed that. At least, I’ve never been interested in a guy who already has a girlfriend. If he’s attractive, I’ll admire him from afar, but I’ve always been in exclusive relationships, and consider men with girlfriends (regardless of how new the relationship is) strictly off-limits. I don’t poach, and know few women who do.