Nice guys really do finish last.

I’ve got a friend… we’ll call him “Justin” since that’s his name. Justin is a special person. When I say special, I mean special in the way that he’s been blessed with a gift. Justin has the ability to be a complete and utter ass to any woman to get her to want him. It works. Every damn time. This kid will find any way to insult a girl, and when he does they seem to want him even more. It’s like they’re under some hypnotic spell, because they keep talking to him and showing him affection and everything. The thing is, he’s not even attractive! So we can rule that out right off the bat. What is it about people like him that is so attractive to you (women)? Do you really buy into this sort of stuff? Let me know, because I’m ready to take some lessons from him, instead of being a nice, caring, and interested-in-what-you-have-to-say kind of person.

Complaining about it helps.



As a woman, what this says to me is “I’m doing what I think you want me to do in order to make you like me, even though it’s not who I really am. Therefore, I feel entitled to some sort of praise and affection because I am being such a martyr by being nice to everyone and caring about what you have to say.”

And let me tell you, that’s WAY less attractive than just being an honest asshole.

I’m thinking it’s probably more a matter of individual charisma than of “exhibit behavior A, and girl responds with behavior B” sort of thing. You might do the same thing Justin does, and just get kicked in the groin for your trouble.

Still, I’m an experimentalist… try it, see how it works. It might be a good idea to observe the women, too… maybe Justin is just good at picking out the right women to focus his attention on.

Originally posted by sk8rixtx-

I’ll bet you’re not seeing every side to this guy. My bet is that he pretends to be nice, caring and interested-in-what-you-have-to-say when he’s alone with these girls. Then, in front of his friends, he puts on his ass hat for whatever reason.

A girl might take a little crap from a guy who’s nice to her most of the time, but I don’t think that many girls would take that much crap from a guy who’s always an ass to them.

Besides, don’t change. If all the nice guys change, then there won’t be any nice guys.

Regardless, every time I insult a woman (generally in a playful way, sort of…very dry), I usually do better with them than the ones I treated kindly. There’s something about an asshole that many women find attractive (I’m not talking physically abusive asshole, just to clarify, but one who obviously wears the pants)

What, specifically, is he saying to insult these women? I ask because no woman I know would go for a guy that says, “Hey, nice tits, slutbag. Wanna fuck?” So there must be something ambiguous in what he’s saying so that it comes across as insulting to you but not so to them.

Complaints like these always bug me, because the guy always rationalizes his transformation into a total prick by blaming all women when it’s really only a few who reward total prickishness. In reality, couldn’t it just be that these girls you’re talking are screwed up or misguided, or that your perception of the situation is incorrect? The reason I say this is not to be insulting, but rather to come up with an explantion that isn’t “Women like assholes.” Because I --and many others-- can assure you that that ain’t true.

At any rate, I don’t understand why guys seriously consider becoming an asshole over this. Are you really willing to consciously treat poorly the women you hope to win? What kind of relationship do you think you’re setting yourself up for?

You don’t have to be an asshole, and you don’t have to be a nice guy. You just have to be yourself. That way, if women like or dislike you, you at least have the comfort or misery of knowing that they like or dislike you for you, and not for who you’re pretending to be.

Every? This needs to be quantified.

Women I know hate jerks. But then, I don’t know any women below the age of 24, so YMMV.

You’d be suprised what some women consider attractive, dude.

That’s true. I keep having women hitting on me, even though I think I am fugly. :smiley:

I, myself, am rather funny lookin’. And not funny in a good way.

And I get lots of lovin’. AND I’m a sweetheart of a man!

And that’s so true too. I have several friends that I am extremely attracted to, and yet they are complete and utter asses alot of the time. I’ve put it down to the fact that they’re witty, smart, talented and there’s just that “something” about them. Either that, or someone in the world has to be attracted to them I guess!

But I do agree, it is strange how alot of people head towards the ones that are just insensitive pricks alot of the time. It happens alot.

There is a theory about this, which I’m not going to say I invented, but it has a lot to do with packaging, individual charisma, and how you sell yourself. I’m gonna simplify the hell out of it here, but you will get the gist of it. It really is better explained over beers. But you can ask me to explain/expound/clarify, and I will try.

It hinges upon the basic assumption that we’d all like to be more than we are (and who really wouldn’t?). Therefore, we tend to seek out people to share our lives who we feel would add to our lives, and, by extension, to us.

If you approach women as a supplicant (there may be a better term, but I like this one), she will look at you and think that you have nothing to offer her. She will dismiss you on that basis, no matter how good you might look or how nice you might be.

Justin, on the other hand, probably is not so much an ass as he is supremely confident. So you look at him and you think to yourself, “What the hell could he possibly have that is attractive to women, when he acts like that?” You’re biased, so you answer your own question with, “Nothing. So chicks must dig assholes.”

Meanwhile, the target woman is asking herself the exact same question: “What the hell could he possibly have that is attractive to me, when he acts like that?” The thing is, she doesn’t know him. So she starts thinking of what it might be. Before she knows it, she’s come up with something that answers the question (or, if not, she dismisses him). But based on her answer to that question, she responds (whether Justin actually is what she has made him out to be is anyone’s guess, but nevertheless irrelevant).

Every self-proclaimed “nice guy” that I have ever met has been a passive type and has tried to spin his lack of initiative in social situations into a unnoticed positive that makes him a justifiable martyr.

I am not a “nice guy.” I am loud and brassy and I call women “chicks” as often as not. Much of my humor revolves around long-winded blanket denunciations of random things I find annoying and twenty-five word innuendo. But I am generous to a fault and unfailingly sacrifice my own needs in favor of those of my friends. So women that I end up with are generally content to roll their eyes and smile deprecatingly when I feel the need to have an audience, because it really doesn’t detract from the person I am to them.

Every honest-to-goodness nice guy I have ever met has allowed his personality to show through in his actions and his words, and his niceness has been quite obvious in the way he treats the people around him. And women notice, and they treat him accordingly.

The best advice I can give you is to find the parts of you that feel comfortable and project them in social situations. That way, you won’t really have to try when the social situation becomes more one-on-one. Because interpersonal relationships aren’t supposed to be about effort, they’re supposed to be about enjoying shared interests or sharing discovery, none of which is all that hard. And don’t worry if you don’t think your own favorite parts of your personality are “acceptable” to women. Because sooner or later, you’ll meet someone to whom they are, and that’s who you want to end up dating. If you have to put on an act to pull chicks, sooner or later it’s gonna collapse or the act is gonna wear thin, and you’ll be hurt much more then than if you just got shot down in the first place.

Women are much more perceptive than you might think. They will see your defining characteristics if you just let them (and sometimes even if you don’t). So let those things show and you will end up with a circle of friends and/or an SO that complements you.

If that’s just all a long-winded way of saying, “be yourself,” well, so be it. I can teach you to be a fake, one-dimensional, chick-pulling MACHINE, but it’s unlikely you’d be happy, judging by the OP and my own personal experience.

My friend, “April” could walk through a room filled with nice guys and instantly be attracted to the only jerk.

Some women seem to only be happy when they’re being treated badly. I can’t explain it.

Every lasting relationship my friend has ever had has been with a man who treats her like gum stuck to the bottom of his shoe. The nice guys never lasted long. She always broke up with them, irritated by kindness.

I’ve often blamed it on the fact that her father was abusive to her mother. (Not physically-- verbally.) My theory is that somehow this became imprinted on her mind as the way a relationship *should * be.


While I was reading your post I thought “April’s” dad must have been an ass, but didn’t want to post it because of the reistance a lot of people have to the “Dad was an ass, Girl will date asses” phenomenon. I mean logically, if a girl had to put up with an ass her formative years, why would she SEEK such a dick in her adult years?

One of the theories I’ve heard (and tend to subscribe to) is that people spend their adult lives, especially relationships, trying to “fix” their childhoods. April’s dad was an ass (and while I believe modeling does occur here, there’s more to the story) and therfore, she seeks out asses so that she can “fix” the situation.

It was probably stressful on her to have her dad behave like that. If she can find “her dad” and fix him, make him be nice, she will have won…she will have defeated the stress from her childhood.

Therefore, a “nice guy” doesn’t give her a project…he’s no fun, so he’s out the door.

The sad followup is if she ever DID fix a guy (which, she probably won’t) she’d soon want to dump him, because that project would be over. IMHO, she (and I guess I’m using she generally, as per this theory, because my knowlege of April’s situation is obviously limited to what you posted) does not view relationships as a potential friend, or partner, but rather as a new project. Something to keep her busy.

This post, obviously, includes a lot of speculation and talking-out-of-my-ass.


Hey, I think I’ve found my new sig! :wink:

I’m gonna post something on this topic in a little while - it’s constantly being done to death here. Look out for it, it’ll be a post on the “tactical nice guy”. I’ll try and post a link to it sometime in the near future.

The basic jist I think you maybe not being honest with yourself (I realise that this sentence is constructed with all the mental aptitude of a hairy caveman, but you get the point).

Honestly, maybe you are just boring. Now a lot of women will try and give you answers that they think are PC and will make you feel better (hell maybe after repeating them so many times they even believe them). Stuff like, “oh well, maybe if you are nice that equals clingy” and other horseshit like that. Truth is, maybe you are just damn boring. And ugly to boot. Maybe not ugly, but real scary looking, like “Well, could I rather have a tarantula die on my face?” kinda looking. Don’t treat these as jokes, they could be the real answer. At the end of the day, it’s just plain DULL to be told what you want to hear. Women seeking a thrill wanna hear from this ASSHOLE, cause he presents a challenging and conflicted interest that brings out their feelings (think of it as “touching a raw nerve”).

Personally I think that “Clingy” excuse is far too overused. I’d say I’m pretty darn clingy, and let’s face it, I haven’t changed in the last year at all, but I’ve got a g-f who has helped me through some really tough shit over that period. Plenty of these “bad boy” types are in fact damn clingy once you get to know them, and I suspect that if you did some sort of psychological analysis on them, you’d find this to be true. Just going by the statistics anyway.

So what counts for a relationship? Son, to my (vast experience and those of others that I know, and having really studied and thought about the nature of life over quite a period) knowledge and reason I can say that (at this current time at least - and to anyone who says “well, your philosophies are ever-changing! What do you know?” I say “Go fuck yourself! It’s an transmuting world out there - and philosophies are amorphous asshole!”) that it’s a combination of everything; luck, skill, attractiveness, timing etc.

And the other big jibe I have is with this so-called “confidence” thing which to me at least for now, doesn’t really mean anything.

Believe me I was once at that stage where I placed all these buzzwords “confidence, neediness” etc. at the utmost of my theories on life itself. But after being introduced to performance related sports like Formula 1 and really studying them almost as “a game of life”, these ideas no longer hold sway with me. I’ll try to elaborate in my next post or thread, if I ever get round to it. But basically everyone else has differing theories, and you’ve still gotta respect that. Not everyone thinks the way I do; hardly any in fact. But that doesn’t stop me from calling on what I now percieve as “bullshit answers” to what are pretty important questions.

Just as a note, in one of my friends (not bad looking guy but not great either) he’s transformed “clingeness” and “low self-esteem” into such a fucking art form it’s almost karmic to watch him in action. And believe me he draws in the girls. It’s all about the performance (not necessarily “calculating” - you could think of him as more “effective communicater”; I’ll try to elaborate on later).

His skillful depiction of his own woes makes him “sensitive and deep”. My other friend Gordon’s mother died a couple of months ago. Some girl he told about it said “he’s nice, but I don’t wanna date with someone that sensitive”. Go figure. Some guys can make it stick, others can’t. It’s the beauty of life.

(And I’m not suggesting he was using it as a line. He WAS GENUINELY depressed about it as you can imagine, and needed a shoulder to cry on. But the response was wholly different. And yeah, also maybe the choice of girls is another thing. It’s a rich tapestry. If everyone was the same though - everyone as this “superconfident supersoldier”, whatever the hell that is - life would just be plain boring. Think variety, ans stop worrying about being a loser. My main emphasis is on learning new skills. Hell, I sound like one of those tantric guru’s; maybe I ought to go into business.)

I think younger or less mature women fall more easily into relationships with ‘jerks’. When a guy pays attention to you one minute, and then treats you poorly the next minute, it’s almost exciting. You mistake the emotional drama for love, and just keep being nicer and nicer to the guy to get back that original kindness and attention, since you KNOW it’s in there somewhere. There’s a rush when he calls, two days after he said he was going to. When he says you look fat and should lose weight, you think that’s just the think that will make him pay attention to you. Every unkind thing he says or does becomes a clue to use in finding out how to please him.
Then you grow up. Playing games gets old, you realize it goes nowhere, and then one day you meet a real live NICE GUY and it becomes a lot more clear. You are nicer to him than you ever were to the jerk, out of genuine love, not to try and get his attention.
I can only speak for my own experience, and that of my friends (all late 20s, early 30s) and know that some women will NEVER grow up and realize what they’re doing, but most will.
This isn’t to say that just being ‘nice’ will make you attractive to women. If you have social repellants like poor hygiene, bad manners, etc, being nice isn’t going to overcome that. I think some men use ‘nice guys finish last’ as a cop-out for not getting women, when it’s really just that maybe they’re not very smart, they tell bad jokes, desperately need a haircut/shower, they’re not very good in bed, or whatever.