If I hear another butch faggot bitching about femme guys I am going to go postal.

[Doobieous]

First: I was NOT trying to go at you with full verbal force. I was giving my viewpoint, not to attack you or your ideas. We understand you dont relate to femme guys, we are OK with that. No one is saying you have to like or relate to femme guys or most of the gay community.

Well, my statements boggle your mind, and your statements boggle MY mind. You see why I dont relate to much of the gay community. Sorry you think that I would rather have nothing to do with being gay…that statement is just nothing more than false.

I didnt say i thought you would rather have nothing to do with the gay community. I said your statements imply to me that that’s how you see things.

But why does my sexuality, my Scotch-Irish ancestry, my agnosticism, or my brown hair have to be so important? …Is it wrong to you that I dont place such emphasis on the fact that Im white?

Nope, i never said anything like that. Maybe it was implied unintentionally, but no, i never said that. It may seem to you that i place such emphasis on my Filipino side. And actually that’s quite far from the truth. I only discuss it when it’s necessary. I dont go around telling everyone i’m Filipino (Actually, everyone assumes that I am Mexican). And the same way is with my sexuality. I dont go telling everyone that I am gay. I dont place a huge emphasis on it. However, it is an important part of who I am. It is not ALL I am (which is what it seems you dislike, making it ALL of who you are). I’m actually pretty private about my sexuality from day to day.

I dont see how people cant understand that I dont define myself by the things I am which I cant help. Why cant people understand that I am not defined by the things I AM or the “community” Im in…that I define myself by WHO I am, my personality, my love for others, the things I have passion for, and making myself the best person I can be?

We DO understand this. In fact, i doubt any of the other gay posters who have responded define themselves bye the things they are or their community. If i defined myself by the Filipino and gay communities,i’d be pretty damn boring. No, i think we ALL define ourselves by who we are.

I dont believe in denying anything about oneself…I would never, COULD never deny something I am, but I would much rather focus on ME than “gay”. I think that if people would concentrate on making themselves the best person they can be, instead of the concentrating on the community they belong to or one small part of themselves which they cant change, the world would be a much better place.

Again, it seemed implied that by saying you cant and dont want to relate to most of the gay community that you are denying it. I’m glad you clarified that up for me. Again, i’m sure just about EVERYONE would want people to focus on them instead of gay. I know of no one who would rather work on JUST their community or a small part of themselves they cant change. In fact, why would you need to work on a part of you you cant change?

I am very saddened that people cant understand someone who defines himself by WHO he is, not WHAT he is.

Again we understand that. I dont define myself by what I am, but by who I am, to reiterate.
I’m sorry you keep getting defensive at our questions and our personal opinions. We all understood exactly where you were coming from in your earlier posts. It’s too bad that you didnt understand our points of view.

To sum up what i was saying: Being gay, like being half filipino DOES have an affect on my life. We were wondering how it couldnt have an affect on yours (which is what you seemed to be implying).

BUT i was not saying that that’s ALL that shapes me, which is what you seem to think I and others were saying.

[gobear]

Well, I understand and agree with Deacons Trucked that one should not categorize oneself merely based on one personal attribute. My sexuality is not ALL that I am but it is most definitely part of the mix, just like being white, male, and liking Terry Pratchett and the Grateful Dead. I see that Deacons does not define himself by being gay, but it’s absurd to deny that being gay plays no role in who he is.

Actually Goboy, from your descriptions of yourself, you’re the very type I lust for. I could be the one who lusts for you on this board wink wink

Woo-hoo! We must discuss this over a plate of chicken adobo.

[Deacons_Trucked]

OH gimme a frickin break. I didnt know this was really about getting me to admit that my homosexuality plays a role in who I am!! Well DUH…of course it does. I never said that it didnt. Sorry if thats what anyone thought.

I just feel like people here and the gay populace in general dont understand why I dont place SO much emphasis on my sexuality. Of course people focus on who they are rather than what they are, but in my experience, I have found that often, gay people place so much more emphasis on “gay” than I do. SORRY IF THIS OFFENDS YOU, but it is what I have observed.

I’m sick of this.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by Deacons Trucked *
I just feel like people here and the gay populace in general dont understand why I dont place SO much emphasis on my sexuality. Of course people focus on who they are rather than what they are, but in my experience, I have found that often, gay people place so much more emphasis on “gay” than I do. SORRY IF THIS OFFENDS YOU, but it is what I have observed.

I’m sick of this.
**

Give us a fucking break.

We don’t compartmentalize our sexuality away from us and try to straighten ourselves up for heterosexual consumption. This is not putting emphasis on sexuality, but intergrating it into who we are. We don’t put more emphasis on being gay, but as you seem to care more about what people think than we do, we sure seem gay as hell to you.

We’re sick of this as well.

[Esprix]

Deacons, in real life, outside of the Straight Dope Message Board, none of us place much emphasis on our sexual orientation. Really. Even me, and I’m the Gay Guy around here. None of us are professional homosexuals by trade (well, except maybe andygirl, but even then it’s in the context of the written word). If you met us in person, you may or may not be able to pick up that we were gay, but I don’t think any of us would introduce ourselves as “a homosexual” (unless we thought you were really cute ;)). The only reason there appears to be so much emphasis placed on our sexual orientation is because the SDMB is a forum in which we choose to discuss issues of import, our personal lives, and observations about the world around us, so, often, being gay is an influence on these things, and it comes up in conversation. Since this board is all about conversation, it comes up more often than, say, while we’re bowling or eating dinner with friends or walking down the street. See what I mean?

Now, if your own personal observation in real life is that “gay people are obsessed with being gay,” then I’ll maintain that you’re projecting stereotypes and need to do a little more self-examination. After all, just because the construction worker you pass doesn’t whistle at you doesn’t mean he’s not gay, right? So if the only gay people you see are the obviously gay people, then you’re making the broad assumption that most gay people “act gay.” In the meantime, you’re forgetting about the ones who are gay but don’t act stereotypically, like that construction worker who just checked you out, and, for that matter, you’re forgetting about yourself. Who’s to say that, in reality, that you aren’t the majority of gay people, but since you don’t act in a stereotypical manner, you’re simply not noticed?

Hey, now there’s a point to ponder!

Esprix

[Deacons_Trucked]

No one still seems to be getting my point, and Im tired of trying to explain myself.

OK.

You’re right, and I’m wrong. Good? Good.

[Ptahlis]

Yeesh. I have lived my whole life in Illinois, most of it in a dinky little farm town. We had a minority population of zero, and a (non-closeted anyway) gay population of zero. Later on, when I joined the military, I became acquainted with people of various ethnicities, but still have never known anyone who was openly gay outside of these boards. Therefore, I am completely an uneducated, ignorant outsider regarding this issue. I have no personal stake here, and I should probably keep my nose out of this thread entirely, but I’m allowed to do one stupid thing a day, and this might as well be it. Hopefully I won’t have to use up the next week’s worth of stupid allotments.

What the hell are you guys doing??? matt_mcl’s OP rightly spoke of how much shit gays have had to and still have to put up with, so why, oh why are you guys armed with manure shovels of your own? Polycarp’s eminently reasonable posts here have pretty much laid it out on the line as far as whether butch or femme guys have the right to expect the others to behave certain ways. Yes, they do. They have the right to expect common courtesy and respect, but beyond that, nothing. If ever there was a bunch of folks who really don’t need to be fighting, it’s you guys.

Deacon seems to be saying that being gay does not define his life. Stereotypically gay activities aren’t his bag, he would rather hang out and watch a football game or go fishing than to a club or a broadway show. He is also frustrated by the fact that other gay men who are involved in such things sometimes assume he is trying to pretend that he isn’t gay just because he can’t readily be identified as such in a casual setting. Self-hatred? Latent homophobia? C’mon! Even I could see his point when he said that being gay wasn’t such a huge deal to him that it seemed to be to some others. He’s not saying it hasn’t or doesn’t affect his life, or that his SO is unimportant. It’s just that he feels that the fact that said SO is male isn’t the most important or interesting aspect of his life, and he doesn’t feel the need to endlessly discuss the matter, nor particularly understand why some other people do.

Am I way out on a limb here? Am I the only one getting this out of what Deacon said?

Granted as fact, there is a need for activism, for outrage and protest, for loud challenges to the status quo. Not everyone happens to be cut from that cloth, and Deacon’s example of how he lives is as productive in its way as any Gay Pride parade. Silence=death is true of the community, but not true for any particular individual.

I read this thread with a mixture of interest and horror. It reminded me of when I learned that certain blacks discriminated amongst themselves by how light or dark they were. If gay people, femme or butch, closeted or not, straight acting or swishy, facing all the crap they get from society at large, cannot even be accepting of each other, is there any hope at all that they can get the rest of the world to accept them?

[Captain_Amazing]

I agree with Ptahlis. It seems like what Deacon is/was trying to say was, “Personally, I don’t think the fact that I’m homosexual compels me to act a certain way. I don’t fit those stereotypes.” I think what he’s trying to say is that he wants to be free to define who and what he is based on what he wants to define himself as, and not fit some stereotype people have of his sexual orientation. Personally, I agree with him. I’ve noticed, among too many people, the attitude, “Gay men are X”, be it, “Gay men like musical theater”, or “Gay men vote Democratic”, or whatever. These are stereotypes, and Deacon, or anybody else, has the right to dislike musical theater, to vote Republican, to be an evangelical Christian, or whatever <disclaimer: I do not know if Deacon dislikes musical theater, is a Republican or an evangelical Christian> It seems to me that it is hypocritical (but all too common among human beings) to say, “I have a right to live in a way different than you, or society expects me to”, which is what the OP is all about, and then to say “You however, by living the kind of life that society accepts, are only doing it because society expects you to.” If we, as people, are serious about tolerance for different opinions and ways of life, then we can not condemn or accuse another person because of the way that he or she lives his or her life.

[Esprix]

Someone please point out to me where anyone told Deacon or anyone else that he’s butch just to defy gay stereotypes, because I seemed to have missed it. I think we have all agreed that those of us who are butch are simply butch, and those who are femme are simply femme, by their inherent natures. Just go check out the “How straight are you? (a quiz for guys)” thread for evidence that sexual orientation has little to do with behavior, as a huge number of the heterosexual men who took the test were rated as effeminate or not very masculine.

I think it’s rather his tone seemed rather prejudiced, and he’s being called on it.

Esprix

[Captain_Amazing]

Esprix,

*Originally posted by Hastur *
**
Give us a fucking break.

We don’t compartmentalize our sexuality away from us and try to straighten ourselves up for heterosexual consumption. This is not putting emphasis on sexuality, but intergrating it into who we are. We don’t put more emphasis on being gay, but as you seem to care more about what people think than we do, we sure seem gay as hell to you.

We’re sick of this as well. **

This post certainly seems to suggest that he tries “to straighten” himself “up for heterosexual consumption” because he “care[s] more about what people think”

I don’t think his tone seemed prejudiced…it seemed defensive, as if he were saying, “I’m tired of having people assume that because I’m gay, I’m queeny.” That’s just what I got.

[Guinastasia]

Um, guys, this fighting…it’s just so GAY…
ducks and runs

There, now see how silly this is starting to get?

[Deacons_Trucked]

WOW…is that some support I see? How nice! Thanx, y’all.

BTW, I never said I was butch, whatever “butch” means. Im certainly not femme, but I can’t call myself butch. Well, maybe sometimes. And I didnt think I was fighting…I was just expressing my views, and then people started calling me homophobic and self-loathing.

Sigh…I’m gonna go snuggle with my boyfriend now.

[matt_mcl]

You accused me of “doing what * need to in order to fit [my] own definition of ‘gay’”.

You told me to “GET A LIFE”, as if my current one is not acceptable to you.

You admitted that your “own prejudices, however shallow or generally disagreeable they may be.”

If, as you say, you’re aware that your prejudices are obnoxious, I don’t see why you’re so surprised that you’re getting static over this.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
This post certainly seems to suggest that he tries “to straighten” himself “up for heterosexual consumption” because he “care[s] more about what people think”

I don’t think his tone seemed prejudiced…it seemed defensive, as if he were saying, “I’m tired of having people assume that because I’m gay, I’m queeny.” That’s just what I got. **

I think his posts speak of an internalized homophobia that compartmentalizes his sexuality away from his core identity for fear of being pegged as gay and thus being thought of as weak and effeminate.

Which brings me to bring up another thread I’m involved in.
Freedom decided that because he didn’t like what I said, he could call me a “limp wristed faggot.”

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58954

Now, if I’m wrong and somehow brought this on myself, I’d appreciate if matt_mcl, Esprix, and the rest of the SDMB gay posse would tell me.

[Captain_Amazing]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
**

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *

I think his posts speak of an internalized homophobia that compartmentalizes his sexuality away from his core identity for fear of being pegged as gay and thus being thought of as weak and effeminate.**

Well, but I get the impression that he’s out and has, or had a boyfriend. (You can let me know if I’m right, Deacon) His posts do speak of a dislike of the stereotype that gay=weak and effeminate. I think what he’s trying to say is that he wants to be looked at as Deacon, who’s gay, but that his homosexuality is just one, and not a very important part of his personality.

**

Which brings me to bring up another thread I’m involved in.
Freedom decided that because he didn’t like what I said, he could call me a “limp wristed faggot.”
**

Well, obviously, that’s not right. Of course, it wasn’t right to say he lives in a “heterosexual world of privelege and keep telling yourself how you are always right and those silly homosexuals are always wrong”, especially because he never said that. Still, what he said was definately inappropriate, and a slur.

[black_rabbit]

How many femmes does it take to change a lightbulb?

One to hold the bulb, one to serve hors d’ouvres, and one to shout “FAAABULOUS!!!”

Do your thang, matt. You can’t help it if you’re sexy.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
Well, obviously, that’s not right. Of course, it wasn’t right to say he lives in a “heterosexual world of privelege and keep telling yourself how you are always right and those silly homosexuals are always wrong”, especially because he never said that. Still, what he said was definately inappropriate, and a slur. **

The thing is, as a straight white male, he does live in heterosexual privelege. He gets protections and benefits from being a heterosexual white male in America, which extends itself in many cases to being hostile toward anything which threatens that dominance and power.

I don’t think pointing out that he comes from privelege compares to a slur, not that I am saying you said that.
Freedom has been on the con side of gays in every thread I’ve read him in, thus the remark about him always being right and us being in the wrong.

[Deacons_Trucked]

Hastur:
I think his posts speak of an internalized homophobia that compartmentalizes his sexuality away from his core identity for fear of being pegged as gay and thus being thought of as weak and effeminate.

HAHAHAHAHA…Thank you Dr. Hastur! I think its hilarious that people who dont know me for shit are psychoanalyzing me.

As far as my prejudices, I mentioned them earlier and my dislike of them. Perhaps I made them sound stronger than they actually are, but the main point is that I find I cant relate to many gay people. I should have known better than to mention my prejudices to the gay people here, as I dont talk about them in real life. I AM sorry for them, matt…and I dont like to talk about them, so please leave me to work on them on my own. But I thought we were talking about how “gay” isnt a huge part of my life.

Thanks Captain Amazing for expressing my feelings so well. Yes, I do have a boyfriend, and I am “out”, whatever that means.

And someone in this thread said I have a lot in common with Fred Phelps? I dont get offended my much, but that is one of the worst insults ever directed at me. Especially when it was in response to my not relating to the statement, “being a fag happens to be an important part of my being, something that shapes a great deal of my life”.

[matt_mcl]

Look, Deacons, I don’t really care if you don’t relate to “my being a faggot [being] an important part of my life.” You may wear whatever blinkers you choose. What I do object to is being told I have “no life” because of it.

[Captain_Amazing]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
**

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *

I don’t think pointing out that he comes from privelege compares to a slur, not that I am saying you said that.
**

Of course your right, and the two aren’t really comparable. I guess the thing that concerns me, (and yes, I know this is the pit) is just the level of ad homenem attacks that sometimes tend to go on. Even in these two threads, it’s obvious. You disagree with Freedom, so you’re a limp wristed faggot, Deacon doesn’t like it when people make a big deal of his sexuality, so he’s suffering from internalized homophobia. I don’t mean to single out anybody here, but I think a lot of people need to take a step back, because comments like this, rather than fighting ignorance, serve to reinforce it, encouraging us to stereotype other’s motives. It’s also personally insulting, and not very nice. (Not that it’s always good to be nice ) It does concern me, though when a thread, even a pit thread, that starts out well, as both this thread and the one on Bush and those two offices did, turns into people flinging insults back and forth. So to summarize:

1. Matt_MCL has a life
2. Deacons Trunked has a life
3. Hi, Opal
4. I need a life.
5. Play nice, or the moderators will lock the thread, and nobody will get to play.