Saying “I’ll pray for you” can be well-intentioned, but it’s also often used as a passive-aggressive condemnation (i.e. you’re a really terrible person, I’ll pray that Jesus fixes you, and fixes you good).
Given the dual valence of the phrase, and the fact that religion in the workplace is generally fraught and unnecessary, it’s all downside with no upside. I don’t think non-religious people should need to spend a single minute wondering if they’re being blessed or cursed by someone else’s personal rituals.
Don’t over think it, prayers can go anywhere to anything, in complete sincerity.
And yes you are confused about my being unchurched, calling me an atheist but if you were trying to shoot a little micro aggression my way by saying so, you missed.
Sure thing, but I can’t take credit for it being my analogy. I learned about it here on the Straight Dope.
I do find it useful to show that such deference isn’t usually given for all hobbies, just ones that involve religion.
As you have said in this thread, there is no “polite” way of saying that you don’t believe in god, even if it is said in exactly the same way that you can politely say that you don’t collect stamps.
I didn’t really understand the question at first because it doesn’t matter to me but I guess you would include lines like “I’ll pray to Jesus for you” in that category. Where I live it’s unlikely that I’d encounter such phrases but I’ve been around, including the Bible Belt where explicitly referencing Jesus is more common. And when a specific deity is named I tend to think that person is not being considerate of those with other beliefs. At the same time I think that they might intend no offense and simply are common Americans, IOW selfish and narrow minded. But if it’s someone I don’t know, and don’t have a specific reason to believe they mean anything but a polite response to news of a tragedy in your life I’m not going to waste my time worrying about it.
And it’s not surprising that I don’t hear about praying to Allah or the Goddess, this is a largely Christian country with some limited acceptance of Judaism, so I wouldn’t expect to hear other references to other religions very often because they may tend to produce rude responses from those common Americans.
But all of this runs far from the OP. The word ‘pray’ should not even be offensive to atheists. Atheists can pray. I’m an agnatheist and I still pray even though I don’t think there is any point to it, it’s equivalent to wishing for something. On top of that I would expect a large percentage of people who say they’ll pray for somebody don’t do any such thing anyway.
But still, I’m not going to assume someone intends offense, or even understands what they are saying can be considered offensive if they respond in such way to learning of sad news in my life.
This is not a decision I’m making for the fun of it; or, actually, a decision I’m making in that fashion at all, any more than I could decide not to be bothered by people who want to hug me when I find that particular hug repellent. And it is you who is deciding, apparently under the delusion that this is a decision that you’re entitled to make, that this is entirely harmless. It’s been explained repeatedly in this thread, by multiple people, why it isn’t harmless.
Is it intended to be harmless? In most cases, yes. But that doesn’t make it so.
Perhaps the thing you’ve learned today is that that isn’t so?
It might have been, if you’d come in here and started off with the analogy, instead of just assuming that everybody already knew it.
Why do you think that assuming someone is an atheist is an act of aggression, since you don’t appear to recognize that assuming someone is religious can be one?
Again, I wasn’t asking it it mattered to you. I was asking what reception you thought it would get in general.
Why only a specific deity? “Other beliefs” include “no deity”; as well as deities who don’t respond to prayer.
Ah. There we go. Precisely my point.
Not only the belief in God, but even that the belief is indeed in a specific deity, is very often the basic assumption; and any response that doesn’t go along with taking that assumption for granted is very likely to be taken as being rude.
I haven’t got a poll on the subject; but I doubt most atheists feel that way about it.
And in any case, I very much doubt that most of the people offering to pray are atheists. They’re using the word, quite intentionally, in a religious sense.
I’m not going to assume it either. But I’m in this thread trying to explain to those reading it (whether or not posting) why it may well come across as offensive anyway – or, at any rate, as accomplishing the reverse of what they’re trying to accomplish. If I think the person means well, I’m not offended specifically at that person. But I’m still uncomfortable. If one doesn’t want to make people uncomfortable when one’s intention is to comfort them: then don’t do that. If one doesn’t care if one makes people uncomfortable while claiming to want to comfort them: then that is offensive.
And that’s more or less the point. The atheist is not offended by the invocation of one’s favored deity. They just think that the one doing so is selfish and narrowminded.
Right, I know they don’t mean anything by it. Anything at all. It’s just meaningless words that spew from their mouth with no thought behind them. They don’t care about your loss, they just want to give the standard “polite response” so that they can go about their day feeling better about themselves, while not giving a shit about you.
Once again, it doesn’t offend, it just tells me who they really are.
Yes, and that’s kinda the point. It would be rude to respond to a christian blessing with anything but thanks, but a non-christian blessing will be met with rudeness.
It’s hypocritical, and is only acceptable because christianity is the dominant religion, and any show of less than absolute deference is considered to be rude.
Point is, it’s not offensive, we just find it silly, and the people who invoke it to be silly. What generally happens is that the theist gets offended that we aren’t grateful for their offering of prayer.
And wishing for something is pointless as well. If you suffered a loss, and someone said, “I’ll wish on a star tonight for you.” how seriously would you take them? What if they used their birthday wish?
Which makes the sentiment even more meaningless. Not only are they wanting me to appreciate their offer to do something useless, they probably aren’t even going to do it.
Once again, it’s usually the theist who is the one that gets offended in such a situation, because their offer of prayer, which they probably won’t even follow through on, isn’t greeted with effusive thanks for the wonderful blessing they have offered.
As has been said, if someone says that they will pray for me, and I tell them, “Thanks, but I don’t believe in god.” the person who offered to pray will be offended by my remark.
When someone is in emotional pain, they really don’t need to do the emotional labor to get to “but he means well.” If you want to comfort someone, remove that burden from them and try to comfort them on their terms, not yours. And if you don’t know what their terms are, the most generic thing possible - “I’m so sorry.” “I’m sorry for your loss” or whatever. That’s why we have stupid platitudes for these occasions.
Eh, in many of these discussions, the analogy comes up, so I would still think that those generally participating in such discussions would be aware of it. That doesn’t mean that everyone is, just as, while it is generally known, not everyone is aware of the Mentos and Coke thing.
And now you’ve learned about a useful analogy that can be used to show that hobbies are treated differently if you can invoke god’s blessings upon them.
I thought post #127 was pretty obviously an analogy as a response to miller’s post about not having any polite way to explicitly state that one doesn’t believe in god. Why did you think I was just randomly talking about stamps?
Even if you hadn’t ever heard of anyone else using it before, it seems fairly straightforward that I was making one. I really thought that you had, as you chose to respond to it.
How about, “I know that in this time, it’s hard to concentrate on daily chores, so can I bring you dinner tonight? I’ll bring a chicken cassarole unless you’d rather have something else.”
Something that shows you actually care, something that shows you are willing to actually do something. Not just meaningless platitudes that further burden those suffering from a loss.
So where else are you going to live? If I let this level of ignorance in the average American bother me then I’d become the same kind of idiot they are. Common Americans say and do so many more offensive things besides praying for me and being inconsiderate of my own spiritual beliefs.
For a friend, maybe, but the context of this thread, or at least its OP, is “what to say to employees,” which could be someone whose relationship with you is entirely professional, and possibly hierarchical. In such a case, would an offer to bring them dinner seem intrusive and inappropriate?
Pushing it? It would piss me off, and I’m not even an atheist. The reason is that it is condescending. Translation: “You’re on the road to hell, heathen, but in my magnanimity, I shall pray to save your soul.”
I’ve experienced this in conversations centering around women’s rights and Pro Choice in particular. Being Pro Choice, I’ve been told more than once that they would pray for my soul because I support murdering children.
Ah, the 'ol love it or leave it argument. Never gets old. (But that’s because it was old the first time it was trotted out.)
Once again, the concern is not that I am bothered by their ignorance, it is that they will act offended if I don’t give proper deference to their beliefs.
You are getting the whole offense thing exactly backwards. Maybe you should ask them why they would get offended by the words, “I don’t believe in god.” rather than continuing to wrongly insist that I am the one offended by their beliefs.
Yes, they do, especially if you are so inconsiderate to not share those beliefs.
I suppose I was talking in general. While someone telling a co-worker that they are praying for them is annoying, it coming from HR would be extremely inappropriate. In the case of HR, they should say, “If you need to take some time off, I will take care of your PTO paperwork.”
And that brings up the point that it’s not even about religion. It’s about someone who is in pain having to suffer an endlress barrage of people wanting to make themselves feel better by offering meaningless words. Whether they are “sorry for your loss” or, “Jesus will get you through this.” the point is that you aren’t doing anything to help the person, absolutly nothign, and yet, you expect at least a thanks in return.
If you don’t actually do something for them, it’s about you, not about them, and there is no reason why they should carry the burden that you foist upon them with platitudes.
I’ve received those prayers, and I’ve also received benign prayers for the physical health of a family member. I can generally tell which I’m getting. Of course the first one is insulting, I’m sure it’s intended to be insulting. The second generally isn’t, and while prayer isn’t my thing, when friends offer me those prayers i say, “thank you”, and i mean it. Because i recognize that it’s an expression of care for me, even if it doesn’t take the form i would use.
Nonetheless, i would prefer that coworkers (who don’t also happen to be friends) offer a note generic statement of concern, like, “oh, I’m so sorry, that must be difficult for you.” I don’t want to be guessing what coworkers mean when I’m in a difficult situation.