I'm burned out and I haven't even started yet!

It is illegal for a private employer to ask about your mental health history, past treatments, hospitalizations, etc., illegal for them to obtain that information without your permission, and illegal for them to use such information in deciding to hire you.

That’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but it’s illegal.

If you are applying for a federal or law enforcement job, they can ask these questions, and you may have to give them permission to speak to your physician(s), but if you are doing well at that point it will not be a problem.

I don’t have any useful advice, but I remember back when you were struggling to get through your dissertation, so I want to congratulate you on a successful defense.

Hm maybe he could take up assassination as a hobby? Tie it in with the military idea, sniper to get the training to create some job openings :smiley:

[obviously joking here …]

If you need a week inpatient to help you get a grip on things, go for it. Stigmatizing people just trying to get help is counterproductive. Maybe you could do something like get a nonstatistics job, and teach some sort of intro to statistics for an adult education project at a local HS or community college. I took intro to chinese language [spoken] one winter for the hell of it. Funnest 6 classes I ever took. I can now be polite and ask after a bathroom location or doctor because I feel ill in cantonese =)

I know all the congrats are probably not uplifting your spirits, but I’ll say it anway. Congratulations, man. I hope you were able to at least let out a sigh of relief.

In a previous thread, I told you that I am you and you are me. I remember exactly how I felt after I got my Ph.D. It was not the best day of my life. It actually felt like the worse. Five years of stress, worry, self-doubt, self-absorption, obsessiveness, etc. and then I get pulled aside by a professor on my committee a day before I defend and he tells me that my research was just a corn kernel shy of being absolute crap. He also warned me that I was about to head towards the worse depressive state that I could ever imagine. He went through it too despite having been published eleventy-billion times in all the top journals. So it was definitely going to happen to me.

His prophecy came true.

I didn’t have a job after graduation. My stipend ran out as soon as they put the hood around my neck and suddenly I was living off my credit card, in one of the most expensive places to live. I didn’t want to go into academia, being the rebel I was (am?), and I thought that would give me a leg up. No post-doc for me! Hurray! Wrong-o. I spent three months in pure melancholia, just riding my bike and taking extremely long walks leading to nowhere in between sending out my resumes to places that I knew would reject me. Trying to cheer myself up by occassionally going to Manhattan and grabbing a cheap slice of pizza. Just to keep up appearances.

But…I eventually got something on my hook. The summer was almost over and my credit card bill…well, let’s not talk about that. But I finally got a job. It was a post-doc research position–something that I was adamant about not getting (because, just like you, I didn’t think I was good enough to do one). I moved from NJ to south Florida over a matter of two days. All by myself. Drove a U-Haul in a tropical storm AND a hurricane. To a place I’d never been before, to work for a professor who I would learn had second thoughts about me after he’d read my dissertation (but got chewed out from my graduate advisor when he tried to pull his offer).

You know what? Through it all, I was still screwed up psychologically. My self-esteem was still horrible even when I proved my mettle to my boss (he was upfront about not wanting me when I showed up to work and then later upfront about deeply appreciating me…so I gotta give him his props). I was messed up when I eventually left to work for VA. I’m STILL messed up, but it has gotten better. Because I finally have time to think about improving myself and seeing my worth through good works rather than abstract stuff.

The older you get, the more settled your life will be, and the less horrible you will feel about yourself. I have suicidal thoughts too. I guarantee that tonight when I’m in yoga and everyone’s standing on their shoulders except for me, I’ll be looking at the rope wall with deep, sincere longing. Then I will go home, finish up my flower pots that I’m making for a co-worker’s friend, eat a blueberry donut, and then go to sleep with the help of some benzos. I will wake up tomorrow with akathesia, my hands and toes clinched and writhing, but I will have energy and I will not want to die. And I’ll see hope in the sunshine coming in through the kitchen windows and that will make me walk fast to work.

One day this will be you (hopefully without all the movement issues!). One day you will wake up and see hope.

If you’ve got to go to the hospital, there’s no shame, man. Do it and come out better and face the world with whatever they equip you with. I know you don’t believe this (because I didn’t either), but you have what it takes to do anything. Not because you have a Ph.D. But because you are still here, with your healthy body and your intact mind. Your chemistry may be screwy, but the person who is you is okay. You are not your brain or its juices.

Take care of yourself.

Once again, everyone, thanks. I’m now no longer so scared about the hospitalization option. Lots of great info and stuff to consider.
**
monstro, **your words have given me a lot of encouragement over the last year and a half. It is a little eerie how closely your experiences mirror my own. But it’s very comforting! The only thing worse than feeling as I do is feeling as if I’m alone. Thank you.

**aruvqan, **it’s interesting that you mention teaching. That’s the one real passion I have that is marketable (the other is video games, which is not so marketable, at least at my level of ability). I’d love to secure a job teaching I’ve been teaching for over 3 years, and even the worst day I have teaching is still pretty good. I enjoy seeing students realize that math isn’t really so hard after all, and that statistics (the one class even math majors hate) can really be fun.

My ideal job would be heavy on teaching and service. As in, teaching 12 hours and serving on school committees and being a faculty advisor for student clubs. My interpersonal skills are quite strong, I think. I can get along with pretty much anybody, and I actually enjoy people. If I could just get a campus visit, I’m sure I could show the interviewers that.

While sending out resumes, you could offer to tutor undergrad and graduate students. If you know SAS or R or any other computer program language, you could teach that in addition to basic stats.

Put up signs on local campuses and offer $20/hour sessions in the library study area. Or create a multiple-session deal designed to cover the basics for the low low price of whatever-price-you-want-it-to-be.

Why is this a good suggestion?

Because unlike you, many science students will be graduating without a grounding in statistics. It will be a worry in the back of their minds if they plan on going to graduate school. Or if they have just graduated from grad school, it may occur to them that all the jobs out there are demanding a strong background in statistical packages and/or training and they are SCREWED UP A CREEK OMG!!! You might not be able to bring them up to expert level unless they’re loaded, but you’d still be able to give them more than what they’ve got.

This could be your starting place while you wait to hit it big.

A PHD in statistics has a heck of lot more opportunity than just mid-lower tier academe. It’s kind a golden ticket to lots of fairly well paying jobs in government or the private sector. I think you need to get your mental issues tended to, but re jobs your really, really need to start thinking outside the academic box. It’s puzzling to me that that’s even your first choice.

Actually… this is a really good idea. Don’t know where you are, but you could expand to high school students as well (if you were interested).

One of my exes, one of the smartest guys I know and a stats whiz and an excellent teacher (got consistently very high TA markings), had a couple of job offers fizzle out on him, so did high school tutoring for two years after his Ph.D. until he landed a sweet job… and had a blast, got to teach kids which he loved, got to pick his own hours, and made a TON of money. He was in LA, so there was a plethora of rich families with money to burn, though.

I went the corporate route because academia is such a head game, but I love tutoring/teaching, and now that I’m part-time with my kid I’m thinking about possibly getting back into tutoring myself.

You don’t know what your eventual job is going to be like now, and people are lousy at predicting how well they’re going to adjust to a new situation they’ve never been in before. Really.

This is what I tell myself when I’m scared of a new situation. When I start thinking, “oh, this is going to be terrible,” I tell myself, “You don’t know that.” You see, it doesn’t work to tell myself that it will be great or OK, because I’ve got too good of a BS detector to fall for that (or else I’m just not good enough to BS myself). I know that I don’t know that this new situation will be good or OK. But I also know that I do not have a crystal ball, and I can’t see into the future and know it will be terrible.

I considered this option when Mr. Neville was looking for a job. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has thought about this, when dealing with an academic job search. Academic job searching sucks rabid skunk balls.

I’ve heard this before, but not having really any job searching experience, I’m not sure why. What makes academic job searching so much worse than industry job searching?

Another question too: I know I’m supposed to be sending out 100 resumes a day, but if each one should have a perfect cover letter tailored to the job, how is this possible? Even when I re-use a cover letter for a similar job, I still find I need to tailor it a bit for the job (some jobs specifically mention service to the school, and others want specific experience with software, etc.). If I increase my volume, I’ll probably increase the proportion of errors I make in the cover letter, which will result in a wasted application (imperfect cover letters go in the trash, or so I’ve heard).

This shotgun approach to job applications doesn’t seem unique to academic jobs…

Everyone else already gave you great advice. I just wanted to tell you that I’m pulling for you too. And no, I don’t think you’re weak, whiny, etc. Completing a PhD is just… monumental. Especially when you are struggling with anxiety and depression. I seriously doubt I could get an Associate’s degree without killing myself (not joking, I can’t handle school). Of course you’re burned out.

I think you have so many options open to you, truly. The stumbling block is your mental problems. Please, please, please get help. As much help as you can. Things will get better if you are able to push through and implement the right solutions.

I think the hospitalization is a great idea. You might not get to stay in as long as you would like, but from my own experience in the nuthouse (I got to stay 2 blessed weeks), it can be an incredible relief to be immersed in that environment, which carries over into your daily life afterward. Plus they might be able to give you drugs and treatment suggestions which will help you move forward.

Sorry to multipost.

I suppose it’s a combination of fear of the unknown and a genuine love for teaching. I have been in a school setting, all told, since 1988 when I began kindergarten. I worked part-time for 6 years before graduate school, during the last two years of high school and throughout undergrad. Although the job was for a private company, it was still part-time to support my main “job” of school, so my experience with the “real world” is limited.

But, I really do enjoy teaching. I’ve been doing it for 3 years as a doctoral student (and I’m doing it now in fact during summer school). I suppose I’m afraid to give that up. However, I do know that my effectiveness as a teacher–and as a statistician–will be enhanced if I get some real-world experience. So, perhaps it’s mainly fear.

There’s so much more oversupply of job seekers on the academic side of things. It probably isn’t worse than searching for an acting job, where there’s a similar oversupply of applicants. I can say from personal experience that it’s way harder than searching for a job in information technology.

As to why there is such an oversupply of people who want to take academic jobs, you mentioned the reasons in another post:

There are a lot of people in this kind of situation who are getting Ph.D’s. I know in astronomy and physics it’s rare to find a grad student who didn’t go directly into grad school after undergrad, and go directly into undergrad from high school. People fear the unknown and want to stay with what they know. When I left grad school with my master’s degree, school was pretty much all I knew, too, and I was terrified. You’re contemplating a huge change in your life- that’s always scary.

There’s some social pressure, too. People getting Ph.D’s have spent pretty much all their adult lives in an environment where doing research is highly valued. Teaching is also valued, though not as much as research. People want to do things that their social group says are of value. If you’re a typical grad student, at least in fields like astronomy, your colleagues make up most of your social circle. If all of your friends value a particular job, that’s going to make you want that job. Your parents and family probably think of a job in academia as an example of being successful, as does your culture, at least for the most part. Of course you want your family and friends to think you are successful- there are very few humans who don’t want that.

Sorry to pile on some more advice.

Teaching is the one thing that you KNOW makes you happy, but don’t write off other opportunities. Like working for the government. That was the route I took and I have no regrets. My old labmates have landed tenure-track positions and I hope things work out for them when their trial periods are over. But I’m relieved that I don’t have that worry. Mine is a 9-to5 job, with all the perks and benefits of a good gubmit job, and best yet, I don’t have to take it home with me. I can have a LIFE! And although I started off as a cubicle rat just crunching numbers (and teaching myself all the stats that I didn’t learn in graduate school :)), I’m in an office and doing much more than crunching numbers now. I feel like I’m in that part of my life when I can look up at the sky, toss my hat up in the air, and spin around.

The good thing is that you could still be an adjunct professor…a gig that’s a trillion times easier to get than a tenure-track professorship. I’ve considered doing this if being a beaurocrat finally gets to me.

There are so many agencies out there that need good data analysts. But you have to be brave and apply even if you don’t think you’d get hired. I applied to my current position even though I thought there was no chance in hell I’d get hired. They were looking for someone with experience in water quality. I was stuck on, “I work with plants and animals! I don’t know nuttin’ about water quality!” But they were really looking for a data analyst, someone with credibility who could make sense out of all the numbers in their huge database. And someone who could make some purty maps at the same time. My cover letter directed the reader to my website, which had a picture of me with a winsome smile and my professional portfolio (in my case, a whole bunch of cool-looking GIS models I’d created). That website and me sending thank-you emails to all the people who interviewed me got me the position. I was told that by the guy who hired me.

So remember to be open to something new.

The mention of tutoring came up upthread - something else to consider is that if you do go that route, if you pick up some basic language skills you might be able to parlay tutoring/teaching experience with overseas teaching/travel. That might be something else that’s just different enough to buck you up out of the rut.

Good luck hun, with the hospital and with the job search.

I’m pulling for you too, Statsman. It’s Wednesday, and I haven’t made it into work yet this week. ::cough::

I like what you said about real-world experience enhancing your teaching performance. I agree! I started studying Japanese in college, and didn’t think I’d like business so I was looking for a career in academia too. My brief stint, and subsequent contacts with people in academia, make me eternally grateful I went to work instead.

I can only speak for the subset of folk in Japan/Japan-related studies, but GOOD GAWD! Imagine all the pressure/pettiness/low pay of academia, coupled with a crushingly low level of social skills and common sense. I also noticed that very few non-native Japanese speakers actually spoke Japanese with any fluency.

I work as an interpreter, and the more real-world experience, the better, absolutely.

Come on out into the real world with us! We’ll wait while you get back on your feet. No shame at all in that. As far as not telling people, of course discretion is best. I lucked out in my company: I remember running up the stairs to tell the president and vice-president I had managed to score Ritalin here in Japan, and there were hugs and backslaps galore that day.

Gaw, what I wouldn’t give for even an inkling of a clue about statistics. I need the knowledge for work, and try to study on my own, but nothing’s sunk in so far. Congratulations on earning your PhD, Dr. Statsman!

I’d also say (and I think people have said upthread) that there’s a severe undersupply of jobs on the academic side. For every opening in academia, I’m betting I could find you a hundred openings in industry.

I’m still puzzled.

You’re totally burned out by the academic grind, you’re struggling for money, and you’re borderline suicidal from the exhaustion and stress of job searching, and the poverty. You’re being turned away from second and third tier Jr college jobs, and you have a degree IN HAND that could open doors to good jobs that pay a high five to low six figure salary in government or industry after 5-10 years. You have a golden ticket to launch yourself into a great job path and you refuse to take your mouth off the academic teaching nipple where jobs are as scarce as hen’s teeth and the culture of attainment is kind of poisonous, especially for you.

You need to tend to your mental health issues, but your job search woes have less to do with brain chemistry and wiring, and are more of an issue of applying common sense in your job searching. I think the intensity of a lot of these mental and self worth issues would reduce substantially if you had a decent job and working environment.

Why don’t you focus on trying to find a non-academic job for a while.

I don’t have much practical advice to give you statsman, but I’ll just chime in and say that you should be very proud of yourself. A PhD is not just something any ole body can earn, seriously. As challenging as vet school was to me, it seems to pale in comparison to the unstructured stress that PhD students have to go through. I don’t think I could do it.

Take one day a time. Things can seem very enormous and scary when you take it all in one gulp. Instead of thinking about all those eleventy billion resumes that you should be sending out everyday, just focus on doing something productive, at least once a day, not matter how small. As long as you’re doing something meaningful, that should make you feel better. Don’t beat yourself up if you fall short of some arbitary standard.

And yes, don’t limit yourself to academia. There’s no honor in being a slave to academic research if you can have a better quality of life doing something else. The single best decision that I’ve ever made in my life was to work for the feds. Hiring right now is tight, to be frank, but there’s no harm in posting your resume to USAJobs and at least looking for something there. Put that on your to-do list. You might thank me later.

First, congratulations. Second, you graduated in one of the worst job markets in 50 years. Don’t blame yourself.

You seem to be taking some bad advice. 100 resumes a day is for people who might work in phone centers. You’ve got a lot more skills than that - and fewer, but better - jobs.

I’m not a statistician,but I’ve worked closely with real statisticians in my company, which does computer design and manufacturing - so not a place you might have thought of. Keep on applying for teaching jobs, but also try to research other jobs. One of our statisticians seemed to be pretty famous - he had a book and he kept on getting invited to conferences and stuff. At your level the work you would do in industry would be pretty interesting. Plus, in Silicon Valley at least, you might start very close to 6 figures. Compare that to what you’d get from a community college.
Forget about the 100 resumes a day and search for articles by statisticians in industry, call them up or email them, and ask for their advice. I agree that Wall Street is a good option if you can stand it.
If you work in industry you might not be doing formal teaching but you’d still be doing teaching. You’d be surprised how statistically ignorant many people are. I had my famous friend do a tutorial at an internal conference I ran, and he also taught a class on some of the tools that were useful.
With a little bit of work, I predict that you will discover more companies than you expect falling all over themselves to pay you big bucks. You’ve got a valuable and rare skill, use it.