Hey that’s cheating, Renee Zellweger wasn’t exactly attractive to begin with! 
But yeah, I agree. You can find a flattering or unflattering picture of just about anyone. I’ve just never found Cho to be particularly striking, and her comedic material certainly only furthers my dislike for her…
I don’t care what her particular picture looks like, anyone that smart and funny can spend time with me anytime.
Hey she’s all yours buddy! But I hope you can endure hours of “Hey look, my mom is an immigrant and talks funny!” material…
I’m rather plain-looking and kinda sick of it… maybe I should spend hours in front of the mirror, buy some more make-up and hair gel or whatever it is they use nowadays…or something… sick of un-beauty.
Hmm, I’m not entirely sure I understand what she’s saying, after going and looking up that quote. I do think that everyone can define beauty for themselves, I’ll agree with that.
Well, wonderful. If beauty is totally subjective, then there is ridiculously high variance in how beautiful people will think you are, and so there are no beautiful and no ugly people! OP issue solved! :rolleyes:
Is this concept particularly ridiculous, or are you just objecting to my careless use of the word ‘totally’? Fair enough, it was a slip, but ‘totally’ comes rather close.
Obviously, there are qualities that are considered almost universally attractive due to evolutionary concerns, but those are rather limited. Other than that, standards of beauty change with time and association with wealth, amongst other things. There is a huge variance when people on the SDMB declare Angelina Jolie or Naomi Watts or Nicole Kidman “not all that attractive”.
This is fat enough to get you mocked now, but then, it was the height of sensuality. I would argue that the variance is extremely high.
EDIT: This is a better example.
That’s interesting stuff. I think some of her tattoos are really works of art.
Living here has been a real learning experience for me, especially in regards to gender roles. My town feels like 1950’s America- the young women I teach expect to marry as rich a man as their looks warrant, work for a few years as an elementary school teacher until they have their kid, and then live life in suburban housewife glory. Look are very much the measure of a woman- even the most basic office job applications have spaces for photos, height, and even breast size. Since looks really do impact the quality of life you lead, women work very hard to conform to the rather rigid standard of beauty- hence the heels on Everest. And because so much relies on how attractive other people view you, women in general are massively achingly insecure. It’s to the point where I see stuff like my friends running around the track, and when I ask them why they say flat out that their boyfriends asked them to lose weight, so they are. They say this with a sense of pride that they are doing the “right” thing.
I don’t want to blame the culture entirely for the frustration I’m feeling, but it’s hard to live somewhere for a year and a half and not pick up some of this yourself. Indeed, they warned us all about this, but you never really understand something until you live it. It’s tough, because I try to be a good role model for my students, but I’m subject to the same forces and insecurities they are. And it’s an interesting thing to suddenly be viewed so differently (in Cameroon, all women were considered beautiful.) It’s a real trip to suddenly become the “wrong” race. I know there are millions of Americans who experience this every day, but it’s something I just wasn’t prepared for. A real eye-opener! But also, a pretty difficult one to live out every single day. I guess you learn a lot about the human experience getting outside of your comfort zone.
Anyway, I have six months more here and I am learning every single day. I think I am doing a lot of good showing my students another model of womanhood, and that is one thing that gives me joy and (usually) gives me the strength to look past my personal frustrations.
Where is ‘here’?
It seems to me that ‘beauty’ is as much define by where as who. On a Wyoming ranch, it’ll be how much hay can you lug around, and do you come through in a pinch. In parts of California it’ll be straddling ‘that line between Bulimia and majorly unhealthy with a dose of pilates.’ In OTHER parts of California you won’t be on the scale as you’re not a dude.
I can say the population at the local ‘ritzy’ mall is quite a bit more photogenic than the malls around the areas that aren’t so affluent.
I live in small-town western China.
Yep, I’m sick of it too. Of course, I’ve never been viewed as particularly beautiful (a few flattering photographs/outfits notwithstanding), so I’ve always known I have no way in hell of reaching that standard. I’ve never had masses of people calling me ugly, but I never stopped any traffic and boys generally regarded me as a friend. I had a boyfriend once break up with me, saying, ‘‘I’m sorry, I just can’t bring myself to be physically attracted to you.’’
To me, the idea that we’re supposed to magically dispense with society’s pressures to conform to an ideal standard is nonsense. I’m glad for those of you who can look in the mirror and unironically tell yourselves you’re beautiful just as you are, but that’s not reality for most people. The images and the stereotypes and the offhanded comments are internalized. This is social psychology 101, people. We live in a country where the majority of 10-year-old girls have dieted at least once in their lifetime. That women are more sensitive to these unreasonable standards than men is well-documented and empirically supported by countless research studies (boys are more affected by aggression in the media, girls more sensitive to body image concerns.)
I’m 26 years old, and I think I’m more beautiful now than I’ve ever been. A part of that comes from the wisdom of maturity, the fact that when I look in the mirror, I don’t only see a body, I see a whole person and for the most part I really like that person. I’m married and my husband thinks I’m gorgeous, so there really aren’t any consequences for me accepting myself just as I am. Another part, a good portion of it, probably, comes from the fact that I lost a lot of weight, so I am closer to the standard than I ever have been. Also contributing is the fact that I’m a student again, and my whole word is more cerebral than corporeal; my priorities have changed.
Either way, body image is truly a struggle, even to those of us who don’t spend our days flipping through fashion magazines. I ought to know better, but a part of me doesn’t, and a part of me probably never will. That is what it means to be a woman in America (or China, apparently.)
I find it a striking contrast, your Op and your last post.
Which is supposed to be an enlightening example to your students?
“feeling like my value is going down with each passing day. … spending money on expensive shampoo and make-up. I’m sick of shoes that hurt and bras that pinch. I’m sick of wasting time in front of the mirror. I’m sick of worrying about if my slightly crooked nose or somewhat dingy teeth precludes me from love.”
Sounds like they’ve been an example to you, not the other way around.
If you honestly believe what you said in your OP, and do honestly feel that way, how can you imagine you’re not communicating to them, the very attitude you claim to be railing against?
I’m confused, perhaps I’m misreading what you intended to say.
You are not the only one who notices the disconnect in even sven’s posts; I suppose that it’s a personal issue that dosent necc. make sense when put into words.
Hopefully, she can learn to both feel good about herself on her own terms, and be a positive role model for her students.
Of course, about 20% of them at any given time are obese. There are certainly young girls who diet that shouldn’t, but there are a LOT of young girls who diet that SHOULD be on diets.
I don’t doubt it’s a struggle. It’s a struggle for me too. To the point where I do not read fashion magazines anymore. I read industry trades because they are given to us all the time, but those are a bit more objective.
I have to fight sometimes not to yell at myself for my Roman nose and weak chin and large frame. I have to actively prop myself up. I’ve been doing A LOT of work on self-esteem lately, for a variety of reasons. I’ve been looking at women who don’t fit the standard who I find genuinely beautiful. It really does help. I’m much more confident in my dealings with people, and the recent weight loss does help. So I hear you. It’s not easy. I get Even Sven’s frustrations. Sometimes, you cave a little, even when you are trying to ‘be the light’.
Well, the statistic provided in my citation says in one survey 80% of 10-year-old girls were found to be on a diet at some point in their lives. That leaves a ton of girls dieting that have no business doing so. It seems we have a simultaneous problem of both obesity and obsession with body weight.
We certainly do. I think the obesity problem is worse than the body image problem myself. Though that isn’t meant to make light of anorexics or bulimics.
I wonder (and I admit, I didn’t read your cite), if the prevlence of young girls on diets has anything to do with athletics rather than beauty. My daughter did gymnastics at a competitive gym (she herself was not a competitive gymnast - thank God she wasn’t nearly good enough of disciplined enough so I never needed to say ‘over my dead body.’). A lot of young girls who dance, do gymnastics or cheerlead (which are all very athletic, but very body image aware sports - and maybe drawing a line between “beauty” driven motives and “competitive cheerleading” is rather difficult) are encouraged by their coaches to diet from a young age.
Which is why most of us who simply opt out of the whole mess don’t tell ourselves, ironically or not, that we’re beautiful as we are. Unlike you, I was the target of people telling me how ugly I was, boys in school barking at me, you name it. Even as a teenager I knew the problem was not my looks or weight or grooming habits or anything else about me–the problem was that they were assholes.
I know in the most objective way possible that I’m not beautiful, in the same way I know I’m not a super-genius, or professional-comedian-level funny, or able to carry a tune. I’m average-looking, moderately smart, only funny to people who like snarky quasi-intellectual humor, and totally tone-deaf. And that’s okay. People like, even love, me anyway. Not everyone, obviously, and typically not the pretty/popular/cool people or their hangers-on, but that’s also okay.
I have a girlfriend who is stunning, who has always been stunning. And whose self identity is wrapped up in being stunning. Her friends are all waiting to catch her for the day she discovers she is middle age - we run around with a safety net for the day her ego crumbles under a 24 year old guy telling her she is “old.”
So maybe, in some ways, what you have is better than just okay.
