Imagine, for a moment, that the prescence of God was made known to you

The existence of God has been made known to you by an entity describing himself as someone being against God (this entity is not necessarily inherently evil). You know that this being is who he says he is, because he has made time stop and you now exist with only this entity and a God that has yet to make an appearance, but who is now known (not just believed) to exist.

The anti-God entity has asked for you help in aiding him in a revolt against God and his legions. He asserts that God is not omnipotent; his very existence is an argument to this assertion (how can an entity that exists to undermine an all-powerful being exist, or how can anything that knowingly opposes God’s will exist?) His promise to you is that once you have aided in helping him overthrow God, he will reward with whatever your heart desires. His powers are limited, however, in that he can grant everlasting life but not omnipotence. You would aid the entity in his battle against God, not knowing whether God is truly omnipotent or not, and also not knowing whether the outcome will result with the anti-God entity being victorious.

If you refuse, however, you are subject to this entity’s wrath through torture and eventual death (where you are then subject to God’s judgement based on the way you’ve lived your life, not taking into account your belief/disbelief in whatever organized religion, as this is a generic God). You could also choose suicide, but, again, you are subject to God’s judgement in the afterlife and probably won’t gain everlasting life in His prescence because suicide is viewed as being morally wrong. Assume that living in God’s prescence means living in constant content and bliss, whereas, living outside His prescence means living a life of constant emptiness.

So the question is, would you help the entity in overthrowing God?

I wouldn’t, because I know that this entity has the capacity to be evil (as evidenced by his torture of those refusing to comply) and could probably screw me out of the promise that he has made to me. I’ve lead a pretty moral life up to this point (as I’m sure alot of people will assert) and probably wouldn’t be in any danger of being denied entrance to everlasting bliss. Helping the entity isn’t guaranteed to work, and like I said, I’d probably feel like I’d end up being screwed by this being, so it wouldn’t be worth it in my eyes.


Please feel free to call to my attention any inconsistencies in the scenario that you have encountered, so that I may able to clarify.

Fuck no. The other dude, the one “against God”, is threatening me. No way am I helping him do anything.

The obvious thing to do is to wipe out both of them.

So, would you be choosing death by your own hand, or by his?

Gonna die sooner or later anyhow.

How you die don’t matter. It’s how you live that counts.

Easy one.

Agree to help the ‘entity’ in his battle, which will of course require the entity’s support and cooperation. He needs you, you don’t need him, remember?

Then, at the appropriate time, betray him AND this ‘god’ person and claim the throne for yourself.

It’s win/win, baby! :smiley:

What kind of loser anti-God would pick me to help in a revolt? I can’t even get all my laundry done.

Nothing about your scenario actually provides proof that God exists. “Time has stopped” Well how do I know time has stopped? All I know is my perceptions have been altered. A “being” exists to undermine God proves God’s not omnipotent? Well, maybe God just doesn’t find it much of a threat.

Anyway, evil anti-God enemy, No, fuck off. I’ve seen enough movies to know a deal with the devil when I see one. They never turn out well. Besides, my heart’s desire? Part of my heart’s desire is to live in the experience of God’s complete, total, unconditional, and everlasting love. (Part of it is to get to view a real, time-elapse showing of the migrations of people in Europe where I can zoom in and out, in time and space, can evil anti-God do that?).

Oh, and why would anyone pick torture and death over suicide and death? Suicide for me thanks. Morphine overdose following Dorito and hot fudge sundae binge.

Whatever else the God in this discussion may be, He/She/It is sentient, therefore, a person.

I cannot state without qualification that this person, God, has ever harmed me, willfully.

Therefore, to assist this Anti-God would be an act of violence against someone who does not merit it.

The action is immoral. Offer refused, & I would fight to protect myself from the Anti-God, to the best of my ability, however great or small that would prove to be.

What does the Anti-God need with a spaceship?

If God really exists, nothing could be worse. I’d probably help.


So some of you would accept being horribly tortured in order not to side against some weakling diety that can’t protect you ? Pathetic.

I say join the guy and either betray him … or discover just how much God is a weakling and join him maybe ? To be tortured without even trying is the worst choice.

In this scenario, the entity’s existence alone is proof that God exists (think of it in terms of the devil and God, can a devil exist without God existing? I’m of the belief that the if the devil exists, God must exist.) Anyway, this is all the proof that you would need in this case (or simply imagine that the entity has somehow given you mathematical proof, or whatever, of God’s existence).

Bosda, the “revolt” in the OP is not necessarily a violent one. It could merely entail undermining God’s power through mass insubordination, where everyone is free to live a life free of guilt or what have you, because of fear of God’s judgement (with him still around, however, everybody is ultimately judged by him in the afterlife, so eventually, yes, He would have to be taken out of the picture).

Change the wording of the scenario a bit. What if, instead of torture and death, you were simply forced to live in a timeless world alone with this entity for the rest of your human life (which I guess is still a type of torture). Would you still refuse to help?

I am on the side of helping him & trying to betray him later. And it looks like I’ll have at least a few smart Dopers to help me do it.

Ayway, the God that cannot protect me from this threat & deity isn’t worthy of my loyalty. Either God protects me from everything (which he does not!) or nothing.

I’d help. I’m not too keen on the idea of having my fingernails ripped off or a red hot poker being shoved into various orifices. Better the devil you know and all that.

But that’s exactly what God promises for those who don’t comply.
I’m going with Mr. Evil. IMHO God hasn’t done a real good job down here.

Okay, I want world peace. I want an end to hate and violence. I want a cure for cancer. I want a limitless source of non-polluting energy.

Now me, I tend to resist whatever I’m being forced to do. So in your first senario, where he threatens to torture and kill me if I refuse, we’ll find out just how fast his reflexes are as my knee goes for his nuts and my fingers for his eyes…

But in your revised senario, where he’ll just stick me in a timeless world, ah… sure I’ll sign on to help him. Better to rule in hell… or at least be second in command…

No way in hell (heh) am I going to help any being that can’t get its theology right: I was taught that God is omnipresent, I remember no claims of omnipotence. In fact, the idea of God being omnipotent would seem to negate the idea of free will.

I’d also be extremely suspicious of the being’s true motives.

Nah, that’s what people say that God promises for those who don’t comply.

Again, it’s people who may or may not have done a real good job down here. God hasn’t been down here in 2000+ years (if you believe in that sort of thing). :wink:

Long story short: Idiot attempts to threaten me into giving aid. I refuse eloquently.

Hmm. We actually don’t know that ‘God’ exists based on this guy’s appearance and request; he could be lying or a loon. Heck, he could be God himself, testing our ‘loyalty’. He’s been known to do that, in some religions.

I also note that the scenario does not indicate that there is any hint of the ‘God’ in question being evil. Not even the entity is claiming that.

It’s worth noting that, absent any previous knowledge about God’s existence, we can’t actually know how he’ll react to suicide, loyalty, noble sacrifice, etc. I suppose the entity might have supplied some details, but then again, he’s stated himself to be God’s enemy, so why should we trust him to describe God accurately?

But, we’ve been given some further assumptions here. The situation would be complicated except for this part:

So, forget what Entity’s offering; even if he wins we’ll be living a “life of constant emptiness”. Fun. Basically if you want that content[ment] and bliss, you had better try as hard as you can to make God happy. Which probably means telling the Entity to take a hike.

Absent these assumptions, I dunno. Depends on how convincing the Entity is. If he’s able to convince me that he’s the good guy, and that God is the evil one, (which doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility) then he’d probably get my vote. Otherwise tell him off, and maybe promptly suicide thereafter, depending on how much God might mind, and how painful telling Entity ‘no’ sounded like it was going to turn out to be.

I’d refuse to help.
But that’s only because I’d feel forced into it, either help or be punished. I’d pick punishment just to be awkward.

If the offer was to help or go about my normal life, I’d help.
I’d enjoy it too.

Humans are responsible for a lot of their own troubles, but we do not cause tsunamis that kill hundreds of thousands of people. We are not responsible for tornadoes, cancer, AIDS, draughts that result in famine, or a long list of other “acts of God” that result in great misery.
Perhaps you believe that God has a total non-interference policy. Most theists must believe otherwise or prayer would quickly lose its popularity.