In Memory of Daryl

The BBQ Pit
201

Are you asking if there’s a reason? Or if they’re deserving? There’s a difference, you know. But either way, my answer is simple.

I’d say they’re absolutely not deserving of anything from you, but yes, there’s a reason. Because you’re human, and to withhold compassion from somebody just because they don’t deserve it harms and lessens YOU, not them. If you happen to be a Christian, then there’s even more reason why you should forgive them, even if they don’t accept it.

But regardless of your beliefs, hate harms the hater, not the hated.

202

I notice that my question about why one third or more hand account is more valid than a different third or more hand account have not been answered. What makes one bunch of hearsay worthy of basing your life on and another worthy of attack as “furthering an agenda”? Is this a question that just can’t be answered?

203

Thanks Joe_Cool for your reponse…

Actually they don’t have anything from me, no hate, no compassion, this thread brought back the feelings I had a long time ago for them. Now they don’t exist. The only two questions I have left are how could they have acted that way? and how could they not feel responsible? but that belongs to them and for them to settle with god when they meet him!!!

As for me being hurt by my feelings, nahhhhh they look much worse off than I do, but then again that’s my opinion :wink: which of course is extremely important to me

204

Well. I just reread that whole thread and failed to find any explication for JD’s first marriage (and child). So she has, at least, been married before. There are only three possibilities then, she is divorced, she is a widow, she had an annulment. Unfortunately, the Bible does not recognize any difference between an annulment and a divorce, so if you have imagined that you have a convenient little loophole, you don’t. According to the Bible, pretty much all remarriage is adultery.

205

Diogenes–I don’t remember if you were there or not, but I’ll try to sum up the 10-page thread that Joe_Cool alludes to:

–Joe and Jersey have declined to offer any further details about their lives before they got married, including whether or not either of them was previously married.

–Yes, it is technically a sin to divorce and remarry for all but a few reasons.

–Those who have divorced and remarried and then seen the light are OK to continue in that second (or third or whatever) relationship, because it would also be a sin to break the vow they made to that second person, and divorcing them would just compound the misery.

–This does not apply to a homosexual in a committed relationship who then sees the light, because God would not have approved of their relationship in the first place. That homosexual must end that relationship in order to walk with God, regardless of the misery it causes. (Why this is true of the homosexual relationship but not the remarriage, I never really understood.)

Dr. J

206

Weird Dave:
Are you saying that andygirl used the same stringent academic guidelines to preserve the purity of the text in her reporting as biblical translators have used over the centuries? If that’s true, then I most certainly apologize and withdraw my complaint.

Polycarp, I’ve changed my mind. Here’s how I found my information (just because it’s not on SD doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist):

I searched SD to find out what college andygirl attends, and came up with this thread.
Next, I searched http://www.dartmouth.edu for “daryl” and found this, where I found his last name.
I went to http://www.thedartmouth.com which is the student newspaper for Dartmouth, and found this on the front page, which told me he died in Reno, where he was visiting his parents on “alleged academic leave”.
That tidbit led me to http://www.rgj.com , the Reno Gazette Journal, where I found both his obituary , which included the fact that he died at Washoe Medical Center (The heartless, unfeeling parents, whose hearts were full of evil, and who were responsible for his death, rushed their apparently only child to the hospital in an effort to save his life), and a police report of destruction of property near his home for the night of February 13 (I guess we are to assume this is around the time he “came out”?).

That, plus a little further searching, turned various other pieces of information, such as the fact that he represented Reno High School at the 2000 Science Bowl, was a whiz at chemistry and mathematics, was well liked by pretty much everybody that knew him, and was a respected brother in Sigma Nu fraternity. All in all, he seems to have been a very likeable and respectable guy, with whom I probably would have gotten along well. It really is a shame that a few people HAVE chosen to politicize his death and lay the guilt for it at his grieving parents’ feet.

Diogenes:
the reason you found no explanation is that none was given, for the reason that it is none of anybody’s business. You have only our word that there is no adultery, and that’s all you will get. If that’s not good enough, that’s just too bad. We have already said that we are not going to discuss it further.

207

Diogenes – I’ll go one step further. JD and JC are afraid to tell everyone the truth. For if they do, they know they will then be seen as the true hypocrites that they are and will no longer have a “moral” leg to stand on.

208

None of that is explicitly stated in the Bible. The Bible just says homos bad/ adultery bad, with no real distinctions.

Anyway, I’m just trying to make a point about applying an impossibly narrow moral standard to others…you know…the mote and the beam and all of that.

btw, Jesus also said that any man who even looks at another woman with lust is an adulterer, which basically means that all heterosexual men are royally fucked from the get-go.

209

For the record, it was because I, being human, expressed my abhorrence at what was reported to be the reaction of the parents, and Joe Cool decided to take umbrage at that attitude, with the consequent multi-page hijack into whether Joe and Jersey are decent Christians or not that is SOP for these things. I like Joe and Jersey, always have and always will, but IMHO while he has the right to his own opinions and feelings, what he’s done in this thread has by and large been totally without the compassion and love for fellow man that his Lord and mine commands of us. I’m not without fault there myself, either – remember that my disgust at the reported attitude of the parents is what sparked his comment. He can choose to take that last paragraph as a flame, but I simply mean it as my own perception of what happened and why – and I think all of us, Joe and Jersey included, deserve better of each other.

Like Joe said, something we can all totally agree on. And, JFTR, that was my intent in making the OP. I regret that my own tendency to get judgmental led me into making a hostile statement about the apparent attitude of the parents in it.

Joe, thanks for the links. I’m not assuming the kid was saintly other than being gay, nor that the parents were totally heartless – I can envision them being struck with remorse, for starters, that their angry statement of the “You’re no son of mine” sort was not taken as hyperbole but as total rejection, and led to whatever immediate motivations caused him to kill himself. Many of us think we have a fairly good handle on what those motivations are, but rather than kick this horse any further, I’ll simply leave it at that “whatever immediate motivations” phrase.

210

kinda like when you asssummed, (incorrectly) that when gobear said

he meant “You, personally Joe_Cool”

??

211

well, when he capitalized YOU, I didn’t think that was generalizing. What would be the point of the caps?

I suppose you can change it to mean whatever you like.
Nothing unusual here.

212

I kept my mouth shut on the divorce/remarriage thing when that was going, except for pointing out to His4Ever that IMHO she was bound by her commitment to Christ to extend mercy as it was extended to her – that I felt she was entitled to a loving marriage (as Joe and Jersey are) and that God blessed that relationship and her sins in divorcing and remarrying, if sins they were (and IMHO, though contrary to the implication of Scripture, divorcing an abusive spouse who won’t quit or get therapy is not a sin), were “covered.” But on that same token, the loving and committed relationship of two people who have done what is in their power to do to regularize that relationship is not sinful either, and is not what the Scriptures against specific sex acts were talking about – they condemned lust gratified homosexually, in the same way as adultery (cheating on one’s spouse for sexual pleasure) is sinful but begetting a Levirate child is not. (The latter is where A., married to B., sleeps with C., his childless late brother D.'s widow, for the specific purpose of raising up a heir for D, something which is not only permitted but commanded under the O.T. Law).

And can we lay off Jersey’s kid, please? I’ve seen pictures of her; she’s a sweet kid, and doesn’t deserve to be tarred with whatever Jersey may have done or not done.

JFTR, here’s a hypothetical scenario on how their marriage is not sinful. I have no evidence whatsoever suggesting this one, other than the existence of the kid; they haven’t seen fit to share with me, even privately, how they came to have their relationship. But a speculation follows:

Ten years ago Jersey, being a normal healthy young adult, dates and meets a guy she likes. One thing leads to another; they sleep together, and she gets pregnant. He boogies out of the relationship, or maybe they just agree to not see each other. Okay, by conservative Christian standards, this is fornication, and sinful, right? But Jersey’s not yet convicted of any such sin.

She gets to know the Lord, confesses her sin in fornicating, and is forgiven it. But, as a result of it, she has a kid. Her duty under anybody’s standards is to try to give that kid a good home and a good upbringing, so far as she is able. And she proceeds to do so.

She meets Joe, falls in love, and they marry. He obviously loves the kid and accepts her fully as his stepdaughter.

No previous marriage, therefore no sin except that of fornication, which has been repented of.

I dunno if this is factual or off the wall. But it’s one reasonable way in which Joe and Jersey could feel that they’re in no way being sinful in having married when she has a child.

213

FWIW, I do feel for his parents. I can’t imagine what they are going through.

That being said, I abhor the attitude that leads to this thing to happen in the first place.

Joe, if all we have is your word, we can speculate all we damn well please. After all, all we have is andygirl’s word on what happened. It’s none of our business what else went on as well. So why is it okay for YOU to call her report into question, but how DARE we do the same to you?

If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.

shrugs

Whatever floats your boat. I’m done.

serenitynow, that was indeed well said.

214

Just for the fucking record, I am not interested in “politicizing his death” – it seems to me that you are trying to do that, by suggesting that by his being honest to them about his sexuality while under their roof, he was in some way violating God’s Law of Christian Households (the father holds all the cards, and the mother backs him up, and no child is permitted to have feelings or think for him/herself, apparently).

I’m sorry Daryl died; I’m sorry he felt the need to kill himself; I’m sorry his parents are without a child.

I think if that the attitudes they reportedly expressed are in fact the ones they had, they should have not said something they didn’t mean, like a number of other people have done here and there.

And I think that there are far too many instances reported of events similar to this to make it an isolated incident – regardless of what you may think of it, or what the specifics of this case are. And because of that, I would like to see some understanding between people on what’s happening and why that’s leading to such tragedies.

But, of course, nobody is ever permitted to despair, and nobody is permitted to have feelings that aren’t straight out of the Book. And woe betide one of us who express compassion for someone who actually qualifies as one of those “nobodys.”

Because Jesus didn’t die for Daryl; he only came to save the righteous. Didn’t he say so?

215

Guinastasia, let’s compare:

A bunch of people whose opinions I don’t care about, and therefore can’t hurt me, accusing me to my face (more or less) of adultery…

vs.

A bunch of people whose words if they were direct would pile untold additional pain on the heads of Daryl’s grieving parents, accusing them behind their backs of causing their son’s death.

Yeah, I see the similarity. :rolleyes:

I wonder, guinastasia, if you would have the balls to say to Daryl’s father’s face that he was responsible for his son’s death. I doubt it.

216

I didn’t say his father was directly responsible, I said the fundy mindset is.

I think the whole fucking thing sucks.

However, I’m much more disturbed by the attitude I see towards depression and suicide in general here. The stigma against mental illness pisses me off to no small degree.

217

I suggested that? Where would that be? Oddly enough, I remember saying that I don’t know the parents were christians any more than I know that they disowned their son. The only thing I’m suggesting (now pay close attention here) is that YOU DON’T GET TO FUCKING ASSIGN BLAME FOR A DEATH ON NO MORE EVIDENCE THAN ANDYGIRL’S STATEMENT THAT “well, that’s what his friend told me that he said they said…”.

I agree.

But how do you justify taking this case and running with it, openly accusing the parents of responsibility in his death, simply assuming that this case is an example of that type of event?

You talk a good line about compassion, but how about compassion for the parents, crying over the death of their son, who you accused of actively causing his death?? Where the hell is your compassion for them? Won’t you feel like absolute shit for the things you’ve said about them, if it should turn out that they said no such thing?

Did I say that? Again, where? Or is this just another unfounded accusation like your OP?

218

Is anyone else a little creeped out by this? If I were andygirl, I’d probably be shutting myself in my room and barring the door right now. I’m certainly glad I’ve always been careful never to mention the name of my school on the SDMB, because I’d be seriously freaked out if some weirdo decided he needed to play private investigator and uncover the backstory behind my posts.

219

I am wondering where these “stringent academic guidelines to preserve the purity of the text” you speak of come from. What “version” of the bible you believe depends on what sect you call home, and suprisingly enought, the sects that adhere most ridgidly to the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit ( Fundies ) tend to cherish the least accurate ( in reguards to faithfulness to source material) translation ( The KJV ) rather than later works with more ridgid scholarly requirements. Reguardless, none of the bible is first hand ( Jesus or God writing it ), second hand ( I, the author, heard Jesus say “XXX”) or even third hand ( Bob saw Jesus and this is what he said happened). It’s either opinion ( Paul’s letters and the like ) or a non atributed “history” of the life and times of Jesus ( Gospels and Acts ) written decades after the fact. Today scholars argue a great deal about what was said, what was meant, etc… This is “stringent academic guidelines to preserve the purity of the text”??? I don’t think so.

Against that we have someone, known to be reliable by several years personal experience with many of us, saying " I spoke to Daryl about this subject, about which he was worried, he came out to his parents, he said his parents disowned him, and now he had killed himself. From my personal knowledge of him as a friend I believe their rejection was a contributing factor". Second hand testimony at most. I know which one I find more believable. You can obscure it all you want with imaginary “stringent guidelines”, but applying your standards of veracity, as set fourth in this thread, andygirl’s story is much more believable than 1900 year old writings atributed to a variety of authors who may or may not have existed.

220

God, Guinastasia, do you skip over things you read?

Originally, Unumondo questioned andygirl. Everyone started a pile on. I came in to ask why the pile on for a reasonable question. (I now know it was because UnuMondo isn’t on the “cool, PC list,”)

Joe was mentioned by some jackass and then he said something.
You see how that worked?

After all that, everyone was saying, “how come you can’t just take andygirl’s word for it, she’s trustworthy?”.

Joe found more info on the tragedy, Someone asked for a cite, just like UnuMondo did. The point was, why should he have to give a cite, but andygirl doesn’t.

Well you know something, UnuMondo doesn’t have to take anyone’s word for it either. He can “speculate all he damn well pleases”.

If you have a problem with people questioning the validity of something, I guess I will not see you saying, “cite please”, right?

It seems like your problem, right now, is with UnuMondo questioning andygirl, and I don’t think he is coming to this thread or the other anytime soon.

So why don’t you lay off joe_cool until you have a valid reason to start nagging and harping on him, ok?

It’s a shame the young man took his life. He seemed like an extremely intelligent, lovable person.
I wish nothing but comfort and love to his family.

I am done with thread…