Joe_Cool–do you deny that teenagers sometimes get disowned when they come out to their parents, in the name of Christianity, and that this sometimes pushes said teens over the edge to suicidality?
I ask because you sound like you believe this whole concept is a myth created by the Evil Commie Pinko Tolerance Brigade. Why do you have such a hard time believing that this is what happened, and why do you feel so compelled to score points on it?
How would you feel if we knew–100% knew–that this scenario had happened to someone?
Right. He was gay, he came out to his parents, who disapproved of homosexuality, and disowned him…but I’m sure he committed suicide because he heard Buffy was being cancelled. Yeah, that’s not at all a self-serving bullshit rationalization.
And by the way, andygirl, you have my sympathies. Sorry I didn’t say so before now.
This is a total distortion of what andygirl said and of what both of these threads have been about. Not one fucking person has said that Christians are bad, or that the parents were bad because they were Christians. The parents have been excoriated because they emotionally abandoned their child in a moment of great need and vulnerability on his part. (I’m not going to debate whether the story is factually true or not because, regardless of the veracity of this particular story, it is a scenario which happens frequently enough that it merits a serious discussion)
These parents would have been raked over the coals whether they were Christian, Buddhist, atheist or Jedis. Several people who have posted in this thread and in the Gay teens thread are, in fact, Christians. Both of these threads were started by Polycarp, who last time I checked, had not converted to Scientology. The way those parents treated their son is what pisses people off, not their religion. As a matter of fact, I would venture to guess that most of the people you’re arguing with in these threads, including me, would say that when parents disown a gay teen who desperately needs their love and support, they are behaving in a decidedly unChristian manner. We’re not attacking Christians, Joe, we’re attacking assholes. Please don’t be one of them.
Thanks! That’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me. I agree totally.
I’ve been depressed many times before. But have I told you about it? No. And why not? BECAUSE I DON’T WANT YOUR PITY. I don’t make a point of going around soliciting sympathy and whining to everybody I know about my problems. How many people do you think go through life with perfect happy Leave It To Beaver lives with no trace of unhappiness? My guess is zero. But here’s the rub: Normal people don’t go around crying to everybody and making sure the whole world knows about their depression in a desperate grab for pity. So I agree with my wife that, from time to time, a “grow up” or “snap out of it” is appropriate.
You keep saying that, like you think it’s clever or something. Did you and gobear get together to make up your insults? You come up with the stupidest shit. If you want to insult me, then say something that doesn’t sound fucking retarded. Here, I’ll do it for you.
In case of emergency, cut and paste:
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Joe_Cool, you’re an asshole.
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Ah, you were there? You heard the conversation? Or do you know what I know about it: That some people told some other people, who told andygirl, who posted it here?
No, I don’t deny it. I believe that it happens. IMO, teenagers are stupid (I know - I was one) and flip out over even the smallest of things. So yes, I believe that some teenagers might feel suicidal over their parents reacting badly to their admissions of homosexuality.
But, I think that killing yourself over something like that is particularly more stupid than your standard teenagerish stupidity.
To someone? Or to this person in particular?
I already stated above that I don’t doubt the existence of this phenomenon. But bad parenting and reacting badly to a shock are not tantamount to guilt in the child’s death. It’s simply imperfection in human beings. I don’t understand why, but it seems to be news to everybody that there is no such thing as a perfect parent. Ward and June don’t exist. People make mistakes. Even parents.
Now, how would I react if I knew for a fact that that was what happened in this case? Well, I’d think it was unfortunate and bad parenting, same as above, but that the parents still do not bear guilt for the guy’s death. The final decision to commit suicide belongs to a single person, and regardless of the circumstances, that person bears full responsibility for his or her decision.
So, do you have new information to bring to the table? Do you know for a fact that the parents rejected the kid, driving him to suicide? Or are you just trying to make a point?
I’ve been lurking this thread, and just wanted to say that you sound like King_Nifty when you say things like that. You’re doing the equivelant of putting your fingers in your ears and going “LA LA LA LA”. Why do you find it so hard to accept that some people are cruel and prejudiced?
Like everyone else, I have certain personal problems. The main nexus for the solution Ive chosen in attempt to alleviate one of these problems is an easing of my atheistic leanings, and try, for the sake of my life, to develope a sense of a higher power…This is plenty difficult enough having led a life in stubborn belief of scientic realities over spiritual smoke and mirrors…But when I read something like this, or the news that a child was allowed to slowly die from an easily medically controlled disease, in the name of a higher power, the prospects of me developing the blindness of faith takes a big hit. This case should be equated with wanton endagerment, but unlike withholding medical care you can’t legislate against ignorant fundemental ideology. The best a guy can do is by vote, make damn sure these Fundies never gain more than a tenuous foothold in our government…or we’re all screwed.
No, I wasn’t there. It’s just that I don’t automatically assume andygirl is lying because it suits my anti-gay agenda.
What point? That’s what I can’t understand…what possible motivation could she have for just making it up? Why in the world would someone assume that andygirl would just invent a story about a person she knew who killed himself? (Unless one believes that homosexuals are evil, sinful creatures, that is…)
I hear her story, and I have to conclude that,
A.) it actually happened pretty much that way.
or
B.) she’s making it up, for some bizarre reason.
Based on my own knowledge of human nature, and the posters in question, A. seems far more likely. Now, if I was the kind of bigoted asshole who would bend over backwards to excuse any instance of prejudice towards gay people, then I might find some way to convince myself that B. was the case. But I’m not, so there it is.
Do I know beyond the shadow of a doubt, that andygirl’s story is true? Of course not. But until I have some reason to believe she’d lie about a thing like that, I’ll tend to believe it. (I mean, some reason besides the fact that she’s gay, and therefore a servant of Satan.)
Please. Anyone here can read and draw thei own conclusions. “Insult by association”? Joe, you have said that you believe homosexuality is sinful. As long as you accept that gay people are lesser than you, that they are inherently sainful in their desire to love and be love, then you are including yourself in that group, not me.
As for the board crash, other people remembered that post and said so, but it was lost in the crash so I had to back down. But that’s you, Joe, class act all the way.
My mother abused me for years, Joe. Years upon years of abuse. I was depressed/suicidal long before I could have left the house. Nobody believed that my mother abused me because none of it was physical.
I am not saying andygirl lied. I’m saying that her information is unreliable. It was not somebody she was counselling, and it’s not a close friend she spoke to shortly before his death. It’s a guy with whom she had a passing acquaintance, and she heard about his death from other people (through her gay organization at the college).
I don’t think she’s lying about what she heard, but I do sincerely question the reliability of the chain. It may be true. But there is no evidence that what she heard is what happened.
And gobear, you know as well as I do that if you ask fifteen people to describe a ransom person who ran past them, you’ll get twenty different descriptions. People can “remember” all kinds of things that never happened. You either produce evidence of such a post (or even similar ones. If I said it once, I must have said it other times. I’m not exactly shy about my opinions) or else shut up.
I haven’t included myself in any group that claims that homosexuals don’t deserve to live. Only in the group that thinks gobear is an ass and a liar.
I may be an ass, but I’m no liar. When people like you say that homosexuality is sinful, it’s the same as saying we are less than you, that we don’t deserve love or respect, and to a gay teen, that’s saying you don’t deserve to live.
And your callous attitude to people’s pain shows what a genuinely bad person you are.
Your agenda seems to be, to me, to defend the parents behavior as something not to be condemned. Is it because he’s gay? I have to wonder if you would have been involved in this thread at all if it were not related to homosexuality.
What if they failed to provide for the child’s physical needs? Food, clothing, shelter. And the child dies. The parents are responsible, then are they not?
As andygirl originally posted, the suicide came ONE WEEK after he came out of the closet. The date of the suicide, I hope you will agree, is not to be disputed. In a gay organization, a day of coming out would be a BIG thing. Can you agree on this? That date, in such a case, is not to be disputed. His parents were obviously fundamentalists and it had been talked about. Do you want to dispute that? Do you want to say that one week after coming out to his parents, there was ANOTHER reason he killed himself? I have to think that if you REALLY want to argue that, you’re grasping at straws. Also, teenaged idiots or not, most parents have some idea when their child is depressed, even if it ends up being more depressed than they realized - coming out to them would have been emotionally VERY DIFFICULT, especially as he expected their anger (in our not-so-hypothetical situation - fundamentalist or not, a lot of parents might have a hard time coming to grips with this). If your child was depressed and came out to you with something very emotionally taxing, and you reacted with anger and outright rejection, and they KILL themselves, yes, you do have blame on your head. I personally think that parents have a charge to try and help their children in terms of emotional welfare as well - I do hope you agree with that.
Lets take a similar situation. A girl. About 16. Depressed. Has things she’s trying to get ready for after graduation. Brings her career plans up to her parents. Is basically told that her parents think she’s stupid, worthless, things she’s been dealing with for a long time. They tell her she doesn’t have a chance in hell of realizing her dreams. She kills herself because she feels hopeless and finally thinks that they’re right, she never will achieve anything - so why bother? In this case, would you consider the parents blameless? This is hypothetical, but I know plenty of parents who talk like that to their kids. Unfortunately.
And on depression: I have to think that your depressions haven’t been very profound, Joe. I’m sorry, I don’t want to marginalize that experience. For me, talking to people about my problems when I was NOT depressed but in recovery periods was VERY important to my mental health. I know someone who has also been through intense periods of depression and hasn’t talked to anyone about them, and I wish I could find a way of helping them deal in the aftermath. I would encourage you in the future to try and find such an outlet, as I think emotional expression is very important in getting through such times. If you’re not a chronic depressive, like myself, the boards may be far out of your life by the time you have to deal with it again - I can only wish for everyone that that would be the case. In the times when I considered suicide, I did so because I was so. fucking. tired. of dealing with the depression - when I thought I finally had it kicked, it came back. and it came back. and it came back. It wasn’t that I wanted anyone to be sorry when I was gone - and it wasn’t that I was angry at the world - I just felt hopeless. Noone could make me feel better. Not my parents, not the love of my life, not even Dr. Phil. (and before you think it, yes, I prayed for years for it to abate, but it always came back.)
Sorry for the length. I have extreme feelings on this subject. And Joe, I really do think you’re looking very damned hard for a basis to leave the parents blameless, or for the situation to not be what andygirl has heard. Why? Haven’t you heard enough horror stories here, of child abuse and such? Is it because they’re Christian that you defend them? Or because he was gay?
Your agenda seems to be, to me, to defend the parents behavior as something not to be condemned. Is it because he’s gay? I have to wonder if you would have been involved in this thread at all if it were not related to homosexuality.
What if they failed to provide for the child’s physical needs? Food, clothing, shelter. And the child dies. The parents are responsible, then are they not?
As andygirl originally posted, the suicide came ONE WEEK after he came out of the closet. The date of the suicide, I hope you will agree, is not to be disputed. In a gay organization, a day of coming out would be a BIG thing. Can you agree on this? That date, in such a case, is not to be disputed. His parents were obviously fundamentalists and it had been talked about. Do you want to dispute that? Do you want to say that one week after coming out to his parents, there was ANOTHER reason he killed himself? I have to think that if you REALLY want to argue that, you’re grasping at straws. Also, teenaged idiots or not, most parents have some idea when their child is depressed, even if it ends up being more depressed than they realized - coming out to them would have been emotionally VERY DIFFICULT, especially as he expected their anger (in our not-so-hypothetical situation - fundamentalist or not, a lot of parents might have a hard time coming to grips with this). If your child was depressed and came out to you with something very emotionally taxing, and you reacted with anger and outright rejection, and they KILL themselves, yes, you do have blame on your head. I personally think that parents have a charge to try and help their children in terms of emotional welfare as well - I do hope you agree with that.
Lets take a similar situation. A girl. About 16. Depressed. Has things she’s trying to get ready for after graduation. Brings her career plans up to her parents. Is basically told that her parents think she’s stupid, worthless, things she’s been dealing with for a long time. They tell her she doesn’t have a chance in hell of realizing her dreams. She kills herself because she feels hopeless and finally thinks that they’re right, she never will achieve anything - so why bother? In this case, would you consider the parents blameless? This is hypothetical, but I know plenty of parents who talk like that to their kids. Unfortunately.
And on depression: I have to think that your depressions haven’t been very profound, Joe. I’m sorry, I don’t want to marginalize that experience. For me, talking to people about my problems when I was NOT depressed but in recovery periods was VERY important to my mental health. I know someone who has also been through intense periods of depression and hasn’t talked to anyone about them, and I wish I could find a way of helping them deal in the aftermath. I would encourage you in the future to try and find such an outlet, as I think emotional expression is very important in getting through such times. If you’re not a chronic depressive, like myself, the boards may be far out of your life by the time you have to deal with it again - I can only wish for everyone that that would be the case. In the times when I considered suicide, I did so because I was so. fucking. tired. of dealing with the depression - when I thought I finally had it kicked, it came back. and it came back. and it came back. It wasn’t that I wanted anyone to be sorry when I was gone - and it wasn’t that I was angry at the world - I just felt hopeless. Noone could make me feel better. Not my parents, not the love of my life, not even Dr. Phil. (and before you think it, yes, I prayed for years for it to abate, but it always came back.)
Sorry for the length. I have extreme feelings on this subject. And Joe, I really do think you’re looking very damned hard for a basis to leave the parents blameless, or for the situation to not be what andygirl has heard. Why? Haven’t you heard enough horror stories here, of child abuse and such? Is it because they’re Christian that you defend them? Or because he was gay?
(and before you think it, yes, I prayed for years for it to abate, but it always came back.)