In Memory of Daryl

The BBQ Pit
101

My respect for the principles of intellectual honesty compels me to point out that this is a false dilemma. There is a non-zero probability that andygirl, while believing the information in her report to be true and accurate, has passed along inaccurate and/or untrue information that she received from someone she trusts, but that she has not independently fact-checked the information. I believe* that this is the (admittedly precariously placed) nail upon which Joe Cool is hanging a portrait of himself as The Responsible Skeptic.

Joe Cool, perhaps you believe you are being a Responsible Skeptic in assuming** that andygirl is guilty of failing to exercise due diligence in checking out the accuracy of the data she reported. If this is the case, I join others posting to this thread in perceiving you as being unbelievably insensitive.

Mind you, speaking as a man who unsuccessfully (obviously ;))attempted suicide in the past, I already perceive you that way, simply from what you have volunteered about your attitude toward people who feel such despair as to make the attempt, successful or not. You call yourself a Christian. I don’t claim the label for myself (even if my church, speaking in a broad sense, does), but I have room in my heart for sympathy for the suicide and the people he leaves behind.

*[sub]Note that this is something that I believe. If Joe Cool wishes to deny that I have analyzed the situation accurately, I hope he will refrain from complaining that I have put words into his mouth.[/sub]

**[sub]Again, I am open to Joe Cool’s denial that he is assuming any such thing. It is my perception, though.[/sub]

102

Venoma, that was a good post, good enough to appear twice, IMHO.

I hope you’ll forgive me for only reading it once, though. :wink:

103

I was not told via the school gay organization how he died. I’m one of the leaders of it. I was told by one of his best friends because I knew him, but those of us on the governing board were also independently informed because it’s something that the we as a group need to deal with.

As for why the circumstances are relevant, I’ll just quote one of my friends.

"My mom got my auto reply and emailed me back asking if I was okay.

I really felt like saying, “Well, no. A friend of mine killed himself after he came out to his parents and they went completely insane… oh, wait, just like you did.” "

104

I swear to the heavens above I only clicked submit once! But thank you.

105

andygirl, all (or even much fewer than all) things considered, you’re handling all of this with extreme grace and tact. I know I couldn’t.

106

I only found this thread and this site via a link on one of my friend’s LJ posts…and after reading all of this, I do have something to say…

I can’t believe how narrowminded and judgemental most of you are!

I do not know Joe_Cool, but jeez, to jump down his troat for trying to take another look at a situation and chastizing those who were casting blame without knowing all the facts is just wrong!

I’m sorry, but you all do not know the entire story behind what happened! Just because Andygirl told what she knew of the story does NOT mean that it is the entire story, and enough evidence to cast blame! To go and blame the parents and to conviently pigeon-hole this suicide as another hate crime against gays to justify your anger is WRONG.

There is NO proof that the boy killed himself because of how his parents reacted. The way they reacted to his coming out could have simply been the straw that broke the camel’s back. Maybe he was already suicidal due to some other reason, but needed that final push, so he outed himself knowing that his parents would react that way, thereby justifying his suicidal tendency.

There are ways for people who are depressed to deal with their suicidal feelings. There are support groups and counselors. If he was fully sane and not already depressed, then he most likely would not have outed himself at this time, and waited till there was a better time. Teenagers do rash things. There were probably a lot of warning signs that were there long before he decided to kill himself. It takes a LOT for someone to get that far, and outing yourself to your parents and getting in a fight over it is not enough to do it alone.

This is not a black and white situation, yet many people on this board are treating it as if it were that way. You are attacking someone, twisting his words and being judgemental on him simply because he is not blindly following everyone and is instead saying something you all don’t want to hear. True, maybe he could have phrased some thing better, but the overall intent is there.

Just because you are Gay and full of hate doesn’t make you better than someone who is Christian and full of hate. Hate is Hate, and you all are doing to the parents what they may (or may not. Like Joe said, there is NO PROOF.) have done to their son. How can you claim to be so openminded and understanding if you don’t listen or bother to find out the whole story so you can make an informed decision? Why are YOU a better person for hating and damning the parents because they may have fought with their son?

This Daryl person DID take the selfish way out. Instead of trying to deal with his depression, and to find support among those who have gone through what he was going through, he decided to not deal with it and just end it all. There will ALWAYS be rough times in life. You are ALWAYS responsible for your own actions. No one forced him to take his life. It was a choice he made. True, he was not in full mental health when he did it, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t blameless. Now, it’s up to his family and friends to deal with the repercussions of his actions.

I feel horrible for his family and friends, and I do not doubt that Andygirl is grieving right now. But the words of all of you who claim to be sympathetic and understanding while damning the parents is simply sickening.

There may be more than one way to look at things, but at the same time, there is only one story, and to cast judgement without hearing everything that led up to this boy’s death is just wrong. (And NO people, you all do NOT know the whole story! It has not been stated!) It has nothing to do with sexual OR religous preference.

I’m sure that if Daryl were still here, this is NOT how he would want people to honor his memory.

107

These are some good points that I want to expand upon.
I’ve gathered from reading this thread (based upon conjecture alone as there is no real proof, but I don’t think that stops me from making this point) that the parents were fundamentalist in their thinking and that they didn’t approve of homosexuality, and in fact, considered it a sin. Now Daryl had to have known of this because he told his support group/friends this very thing. What exactly was he expecting from his parents when he went to tell them that he was gay? That they disregard all their teachings/beliefs and reach some enlightened state of being with his revelation? Or that they would most probably react in the manner in which they did?
If you poke a grizzly bear with a stick you certainly know what is likely to happen, then why would you be surprised when he turns around and rips your head off?
I think the blame shouldn’t entirely rest with the parents whose close mindedness is a given, but at least partly rest with the people who advised Daryl to goad them into acting exactly like anyone with a lick of sense could predict they would.
Like Red says, “What possible good could come from it?”.

108

Rather than continue the hijack, I’ve started a thread where we can explore people’s attitudes toward suicide. Joe_Cool, Jersey Diamond, I’d particularly appreciate it if you’d join in. I’ve already posted my first hand experiences with suicide here, but I’d like to learn more about why people think the things they do.

Thanks,
CJ

109

Two things:

  • the realization that you cannot live without letting it out - you cannot continue to sneak, conceal, hide, remember your story, and have two lives - it is actually impossible to do. I hated my father when I was 16, and fully intended to stay closeted just to spite him - but I couldn’t do it. Finally I had to come out to him, and damn the consequences. For a lot of people, staying in the closet is simply not an option.

  • the hope that it will be different - that your parents will react differently with regard to a random stranger than they will with respect to their own beloved child, the flesh of their flesh. This is often the case; sadly, it often isn’t, too.

110

Joe, here, repeated in full, is what Andygirl posted, which is all I know about the situation, save for what little she has supplemented it with in that thread and this:

No, I’m sorry for them, but I have to suggest that they brought a great part of their tragedy onto themselves presuming that that piece of information and its implications are correct.

And, like lel said above, it’s not right to judge anyone in this picture – we don’t know enough and it wouldn’t be our place to even if we did. But if you refuse to accept that this is symptomatic of an ongoing trend, for whatever reason, you’re being blind to a statistical reality.

IMHO, it’s your job and mine, as Christians, to try to find a way to help people in such situations through their problems, not to sit back and assign blame afterwards.

I stand by my OP – except for the difficulty I had in finding compassion for the parents, which was an honest report of my feelings at the time.

I would love for this much good to come out of this tragedy: that they go public with what happened, and repent of the sort of stance they took that resulted in their son’s death by his own hand, so that others will learn from what they have gone through.

And, without trying to start a flamefest, I wonder if you or Jersey would state what you two feel the proper reaction of people towards each of the three of them, both before and after the suicide, ought to have been, and perhaps why.

111

Well my dad was a drunken asshole at the time who was ruining the lives of everyone he came in contact with. He certainly needed to be told. But, like my bear analogy, I wasn’t foolish enough to do it if I wanted to continue to breath. I decided it was better for me to leave than take the chance.

Yes, you hope that they will react the way you want them to. What is your plan when they don’t react that way and do react in the way you should have expected if you had thought logically about your decision?
While I don’t agree with his parents reaction, I can understand why it happened. To blame them for their initial reaction is unfair because that is the way they were programmed.

112

Welcome to the SDMB, BunBun. That was one of the best first posts I’ve ever seen. Hope you stick around.

113

Fuck you. :wally

114

May I also welcome BunBun to the Boards. However

You should also be aware that Joe_Cool’s remarks and people’s willingness to put a strong interpretation of them have a history on these Boards. You’d be well advised to check that history before describing critics of Joe_Cool as “narrow-minded and judgemental.”

115

Hey Joe, putting legitimate questions of evidence aside…

Assuming that the story is, in its important details, true, do you think that moral condemnation of the parents is unjustified?

116

In other words, multi-hand, unsubstantiated hearsay. Like I said before.

…unless I missed the part where andygirl said that she spoke to his parents about the event?

And besides, you clearly embellished the story and did quite a bit of creative interpretation of andygirl’s words in your OP, I assume for dramatic effect. :rolleyes: It was not a close friend, and it was not somebody she had been counseling.

And as I said before, that’s a pretty big and unsubstantiated presumption. Not to mention unfair.

So then, I have trouble understanding why you started a thread accusing the parents of the son’s death. :confused:

Huh? You stand by your OP, which blasted the parents and assigned them full blame for his death? Yet you admit that it’s not our place to assign blame? Pardon me, but WTF??

And still, you cling blindly to the assumption that they ripped into their son and forced his suicide. You insist on your assumption about what happened in the home that night, without any knowledge whatsoever. Unbelievable.

I can tell you what I think my reaction would be, how’s that?

I’d be upset and shocked, and obviously not pleased. But your child is your child. That doesn’t change because they’re doing something you don’t approve of. My child will always be welcome in my home, but frankly, my rules need to be respected. And my rules include actions that I don’t approve of remaining outside my home. Period. That means the SO doesn’t come hang out at family functions. If you think that’s unfair, then too bad. You raise your own children, and I’ll raise mine.

And I wouldn’t be utterly shocked if I found out that Daryl’s parents reacted in a similar way, and in the typical self-absorbed way that teenagers do, he blew it up disproportionately and killed himself over a distortion of what really happened.

117

IF it’s true in all its details, then yes, the parents reacted in a very wrong, hurtful, unparental, and unchristian way. But I still don’t think that makes them responsible for his death. It’s sad and it’s unfortunate, but it’s not their fault. Moral condemnation of the parents? No. They made a mistake, which may have had grave consequences, but that doesn’t make them killers.

I said before, responsibility for suicide rests solely on one person. Everybody has things in their lives that they have trouble dealing with. Not everybody takes the coward’s way out.
BunBun and Uzi, I agree with you. I’m not saying that the guy had model perfect parents (I have no knowledge either way). I’m saying that the automatic condemnation of them based on zero first-hand knowledge is unfair and just plain wrong.

Gosh, that was profound. Thank you for treating us to your insightful verbal stylings. If suicide wasn’t the selfish way out, then please, tell me who else benefitted by it? Whose gain was his death?

Hawthorne:
I really don’t care if you like me. But how about addressing what I’ve said, instead of posting an Ad Hominem, huh? Or is the problem that you can’t find a problem with what I’ve said, but you’re so desperate to say something that you have to fall back to your last resort?

118

This is utterly hypocritical bullshit. If you love your child, then you accept who they love. Your child is more important than your fucktard “rules.” Let me ask you this. What if your wife disagrees with your “rules” and wants to welcome her child’s same-sex SO into the house anyway. What then? Do your “rules” have more authority than your wife’s rules? What would you do if you came home and your wife was entertaining her son and his boyfriend in the living room?

Telling the kid “we have no son” is not a disproportionate reaction to finding out that he is gay? Who has more responsibility here, a depressed, vulnerable kid or the mature “Christian” parents?

119

FWIW, I found the entire incident tragic, and the reported disowning of the child to be sufficiently obnoxious that I have trouble mustering sympathy for them even as I realize that they must be grieving. And I found it to be all too illustrative of something that is a growing problem, which deserves the attention of all of us IMHO.

If your perception is that I started this to flame the parents, then that’s your perception; I can’t alter it. I started it to speak out about a tragedy that has cost a life in this particular case and is a sample of an ongoing problem.

But never mind – obviously because they’re “good Christian parents” they must have done nothing wrong, and the fact that the kid killed himself, for whatever reason, is nothing that you or I or any other “good Christian” ought to be concerned about. Is that what you’re saying? I cannot believe that for one moment.

Maybe it’s possible for us to get off the “who’s to blame” kick and deal with the fact that there’s a problem here, and somebody needs to do something about it. That was my intent, not to put blame on them. I merely stated that I had serious problems with their alleged attitudes that kept me from honestly expressing any sympathy for them at the time I made the OP.

Like you said, we don’t know what all happened, and what led up to this. And we probably never will. All I know is, I’m grieved that a kid felt he had to kill himself, and that a set of parents apparently felt sufficiently offended by what he said to them that they told him he was no longer their son – on the presumption that Andygirl is reliably reporting the situation. (If you have any reason whatsoever for doubting her word, you are well advised to state it – she knew the boy and has a reputation for honestly reporting what she encounters; to cast aspersions on her reportage as forty-second-hand or whatever is offensive; we’re all aware that she was not present at the incident and is reporting what she has been told.)

Tell you what, the next time we have a gay teen commit suicide because his parents have disowned him (or for any other reason), we’ll get the dead kid and the grieving parents to post their sides of the story, firsthand. :rolleyes:

120

Well, that’s quite true. I oversimplified my choices, and what’s more, I knew I was doing it at the time. So bad on me. But you will note that I used the phrase “pretty much”, which sorta-kinda takes that possibility inot account…

At any rate, it is my opinion that Joe’s Responsible Skeptic is just a mask (though he wears it well) over his true face, the Outraged Fundamentalist.