Lest anyone infer otherwise from CrazyCatLady’s post, not only was I not upset about her keeping her name (or trying to “negotiate”), I didn’t want her to change it. I love her (in part) for her individuality, and her name is part of that. I wanted to marry her, not assimilate her into my hive-mind.
Dr. J
He never said you have to do anything. You are putting those words in his mouth. He said he was “curious” if you do anything except complain here. It’s fair game to examine the person making a complaint to evaluate whether it is worth listening to them. To use your point of view, who says we have to listen to you?
That is a fairy tale fantasy told to little girls. Real marriages always involve both parties giving up something of value at one time or another.
Hmm. So family heritage is important. Earlier you labeled such sentiments as “lame”, yet you now proclaim it as a worthy value of yours.
A rose by any other name?
Don’t be mean, FranticMad. Believe me, I have really enjoyed reading everyone’s posts and learning about everyone’s opinions on the subject. That doesn’t mean I cannot rebut or retort. Your personal attack (that I have no intellectual integrity) is mean-spirited. I have not attacked anyone personally for their views. I never take these philosophical debates personally, until someone like you tries to insult me. I find it fascinating to debate these issues. Maybe I should have posted elsewhere, but I didn’t think the question was important enough for GD. Sorry.
I just want you to know, FranticMad, that I am indeed interested in everyone’s opinion, and I have read and digested each and every post. I hope you will reconsider your negative impression of me.
third time lucky maybe htis time the post will work…
i started to read this thread earlier today and just had to reply the topic just irritated me for several reasons, will you look at what it is your arguing about? its just a name, it in no way has anything to do with our identity or our personality, i give you an example, probably one of the worlds worst killers, jeffrey dahmer, did he kill because he was a dahmer? i seriously doubt that, its because of how his mind worked! our names are no reflection on our lives, that man had he been named something else would more then likely have still turned out to be killer. when it comes to taking names in a relationship, most do it from habit, there are far more worrying things for couples out there then whos name wel take… as the main point of keeping ou original name means we are losing our identity, why is it then when we come online, we pick a name that has probably no relation to our actual name? if it means so much why use birdgirl…im doubting that is you real name :P, or why would i use Delly? or anyone else use anything if they mean so much to us? fact is its just a name, isnt it just best to make the decision when the time comes? for the time being, worry about the stuff that matters… this is just trivial
no i cant spell
The speech where Juliet ponders the essence that is named Romeo, and rhetorically asks Romeo to give up his name because it is not a real part of him: *'Tis but thy name that is my enemy, thou art thyself though not a Montague. What’s Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot, nor arm, nor face, nor any other part belonging to a man. Oh, what’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet; so Romeo would, were he not Romeo called, retain that dear perfection to which he owes without that title. Romeo, doff thy name! And for thy name, which is no part of thee, take all myself. *
Exactly. My husband tried to pull that shit on me when we got married, and I let him know under no uncertain terms that that simply would not fly. If it was such a strong sign of love, why wasn’t he changing his last name?
Oh please. My husband is a swell guy, and I would move heaven and earth for him, but just because he “loves and cherishes” me doesn’t mean I have to completely change my identity.
Excuse me. I guess you could say I mean “blood family heritage.” My parents are the people who raised me and who have done more for me and would do more for me than anyone else in the world. I am them, and they are me. Our family name is therefore important to me. That is one reason I would not change it. My parents will always be my parents. My husband may not always be my husband.
But to me it is the principle of the thing. Many women I know have never even stopped to think about it. They just did it. A lot of people never question “tradition.” Traditions can become obsolete and antiquated.
May I ask, FranticMad, what do you think the origins of this practice are? Would you feek OK about taking your wife’s last name if it was “tradition?”
Does the process matter if the outcome is always the same. When my fiance and I were deciding on a surname, I kept coming back to this article:
http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/01/20/surnames/
BTW, if a man needs the child to have his last name just so he’ll stick around, that’s not someone I’d want to have as the father of my child anyway. People would think it was monstrous if a women needed little carrots like that to care for her own offspring.
Also, I hate to repeat myself, but if the bride’s last name is really her father’s name, then isn’t the groom’s last name really his father’s last name? Why are men so attached to the surname they grew up with, but women aren’t expected to be?
Good lord, yes! It only costs twenty dollars, after all. FWIW, I changed my name ten years ago, when I was young and going through my own identity crisis. There were family implications in that crisis for me as well, so I took a maternal maiden name from 5 generations back. While I was at it, I changed my other two names. I now have a very alliterative name, a name I like and that suits me. The whole name may be impractical for you if you have children and a profession–I was still untethered back then. But, by all means! Certainly your last name. If you want.
Bloomington, eh? Poet? Are you associated with the English department at IU in any way?
Makes sense to me!
I’m sure you’re right. Yet, it seems to me that most posters here have thought about it in great depth, but you dismiss their reasons as “lame.”
Agreed. I am not a traditionalist, but I accept and understand that there are people who prefer tradition even it makes no sense to me.
Medieval tradition of women as chattel, I assume. I am not an expert on the history of oppression. It sounds like you know something of its origins and it gets you angry.
No, only if she was successful and wealthy. Look, personally I agree with you. I am unconventional and a non-traditionalist. I hate having to do things because they are tradition. I like to be spontaneous and follow my own ideas. I loathe the idea of subjugating my identity to anyone else. I like my name. So, really, I feel the same as you do. But not everyone will agree with you even when they are given the same facts you know.
I know that there is misogyny in the world, but I see very little of it here on SDMB.
Good point, FranticMad. Most of the people on this board are so much more intelligent and open-minded than the average person. That is why I like it here. But, as some posters have said in this thread, a lot of people look down upon a woman not changing her last name. Some people have mentioned encountering negative and disapproving attitudes toward this. I think this is more common than not. That is probably the reason I get mad about it.
birdgirl
Why this tradition developed and why people continue to follow are two separate questions. People in this thread so far have primarily been answering how they’ve handled this particular dilemma in their own lives.
These reasons:
And others are precisely why it’s still being done. If you wanted to know why people used to do it then you should have asked that question in the first place. Or if, rather, your true question was something along the lines of
“Are current day patrilineal naming practices repressive towards women?”
Or…
“How did the past reasons for patrilineal naming practices transform into the current day reasons?”
Or…
“To what extent, and why, does society in general pressure women to conform to patrilineal naming practices in this day and age?”
Then those are the questions you should have asked.
Daffodil5
The answer is “Yes, it most asurredly does”. To use an extreme example: Would it matter if someone became President of the United States through corrupt and illegal means vs. if that same person became President through completely legitimate and honest methods?
GREAT ARTICLE!
Where else does the practice come from? Do I really have to go into a lecture about Blackstone and femme covert status? I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with women changing their name and I’ve been quite vocal about that. I’m just talking about the origin of the practice, and I’m a bit surprised there’s disagreement about that.
My husband would do more for me than anyone else in the world. And I for him. I am not him and he is not me (I never was my parents either) but we are committed to each other beyond and to the exclusion of all others. That is why we married each other. It doesn’t negate what my parents did and also would do for me, but if it was between my dad laying dying and my husband laying dying, at the same time (GOD FORBID!), who would I be with? My husband.
Granted, while 50% percent of all Americans who marry will divorce at some point in their life, I am hard pressed to assume, without further evidence, that many people go into any marriage thinking it won’t last - the media’s interest in the idea of a “starter marriage” notwithstanding.
Twiddle
Interesting that you picked that name, Delly. I don’t have a cite, but I’m sure someone could look it up. (gotta get the kids in bed, so this will be quick)
I remember reading that Jeffrey Dahmer’s siblings (maybe just one?) changed their name to their mother’s maiden name to avoid any connection with the name ‘Dahmer.’
When I took my vows to my husband (and he to me) we certainly felt that we would not be one of the 50% that will divorce.
7 years later we still feel that way.
I simply cannot reconcile in my mind going into a marriage to pledge to be together and love and support eachother forever while having the attitude that “husbands come and go”
My husband and I discuss marriage often. We’ve seen our friends marry and divorce, we’ve watched them fight and seen the recurrently unhealthy behaviors that spur these fights. We discuss how we feel about all of these issues and many more. We don’t want to be statistics and we love eachother deeply and work to keep our marriage happy and healthy.
I was proud to take his name and am proud to refer to myself as Mrs. hislastname. I don’t see this as giving up who I am. Life is all about change and I see marriage (and the changes that accompany marriage) as going forward into this new chapter in my life. Just as I will not have an identity crisis when my daughter’s friends start to visit and my “name” changes again to Cara’s mommy. (at least this time it won’t require any paperwork
I’ve been trying to see exactly what the origin of taking his name at marriage is but it has been a very hectic day today. I did find this article that made some interesting examples from around the globe.
If I may offer this nugget:
The Province of Quebec has made it part of the civil code that names DO NOT change for either partner upon marriage. The reason given at the time of the change (mid-80’s if memory serves) among others, was that the divorce rate had made the frequent name changes in the civil and tax data bases, etc, both costly and a huge administrative burden. If a person (notice my use of the gender neutral there) wants to change their name for any reason, they have to do it through the lawyers and pay the fee, period.
When they changed the law in QC, all provincial ID’s for married women were AUTOMATICALLY re-issued in their maiden names. My mother, Mrs. Married, hadn’t used her maiden name in over 30 years… she wouldn’t even look up at the hospital when they were calling out her ‘maiden’ name. It was a little surreal for these women. But I digress…
Now, when I got married, it bothered me that I was not allowed a choice, I would keep my ‘maiden’ name even if I would have preferred to change it. The point is, the thing I resented the most was not the issue that surrounded changing my name but the issue that the state had removed my freedom to make that choice. But then I realised it was the most gender-friendly approach to things: nobody changes name, ever. Is more misogynist or less? Were men removing a woman’s ‘right’ to take her husband’s name or were women leveling the playing field? (Shrugs) It doesn’t make much difference to me, quite frankly.
(The federal government adds the ‘married’ name to the passport for free, and I did add Mr. Undone’s name to mine… we’re together me and he, and I wanted my name to reflect that, at the end of the day.)
When I lived in the US for two years, I was suddenly faced with the choice to change or not to change. It may be unoriginal, but I chose to live the cliché: my ID papers remained in my ‘maiden’ name and socially I was Mrs. Married. No big whoop. I answered to both, and coincidentally still do now that I’ve moved back to Canada. Am I going to raise a stink because my kid’s teacher, with no way of knowing my ‘maiden’ name, calls me Mrs. Married as a way to identify the link between myself and my child? Nope. Because it doesn’t change who I am. There are more important things to worry about.
Am I proud of my name? Well, I’m proud of all of them, the given ones, the maiden one and the married one, they all share this little speck on the planet that is me, but they don’t define me.
It all boils down to choice Birdgirl. You want to keep your name because it’s precious to you? Do it. Just open your mind wide enough to let in the fact that others don’t take the name thing as seriously as you, or choose something other than what you define as right or wrong.
P.S. I never really got into the hyphenated name thing. French-speaking Quebecers often give first names that are two hyphenated names so there’s a kid in my daughter’s class who’s name reads something like Soleil-Angèle Portelance-Sansoucy. I say pick one name and go with it… the child can make their own choice about name later in life. In the meantime, can’t we make things more simple by using only one? JMHO no offense intended…
Then explain this, please:
(bolding mine).
(bolding mine).
and then there’s this gem:
By assuming that men won’t change their name makes them out to be pigs.
By assuming that women will “probably do all the work” in raising a child makes men out to be lazy.
Hence: lazy pigs.
you are correct that you didn’t use those words, but your rather abrassive tone suggests them to me and a few others here.
You’re right. you don’t have to do a damn thing. You just seemed so bent out of shape over these issues that I wondered what you were actually doing about them, is all.
you then go on to say:
Well, I really hate seeing people butt into other people’s business.
The fact is, I don’t have a problem with your question. I don’t think anyone here does. Its all about your tone and insulting manner (“if you change your name you are brainwashed”).