In which Cisco creates a whole new breed of fundie

[Mysphyt]

Cisco, I’ve seen you around before, and must admit that until now, I’ve never thought much of you one way or another. I know your name, but have never been really struck by any of your posts. And then this thread comes along, and . . . oh, well, goodness. Just see for yourself, people.

But before you do, let me come out with it: I’m a Christian. If, Cisco, you decide that that’s the reason for all of these criticisms, and that you’re not in the wrong, so be it. The rest of you, however, look at this bloody thing. It speaks for itself, really.

Highlights from the thread “Help! My girlfriend is a Christian,” which pretty much says it all:

All from Cisco’s OP:
“I can’t tolerate christianity”
“I said something about advent being a ‘cultist ritual’”
“In my eyes anyone who seeks out facts and uses logical and rational thought will easily come to the conclusion that Christianity is a fallacy and therefore I can’t respect anyone who refuses to come to that conclusion.”
"What if we had children one day and she tried to bring them up as devout christians? I’ve seen that screw up some kids pretty bad (several of my cousins and extended family.) "
“I’m not even sure that my way (atheism) is right, I’m just saying that their way is wrong. Is it really so wrong to state the fact that christianity has no evidence to support it?”

And then, this wonderful lump of steaming steer feces:

I don’t want to force her to be an atheist anymore than I want her to force me to be a christian, we just can’t seem to find a middle ground.

So, to review: “Oh, honey, my beloved cultist, believer in whatever any idiot will sell you, how much I adore you. My respect for you is only tempered by your patent idiocy, and the fact that you’re a gullible moron who is clearly incapable of logical and rational thought. I respect you in the same way that I respect the Special Olympian: you’re a wonderful person, to be sure, and you can’t really be blamed for your predicament, but you’re not much in the thinking department. Now excuse me, dear idiot, but I can’t talk to you any longer. The Simpsons are on.” (preceding was not quoted, simply representative of the attitude behind the post)

Look at yourself, Cisco. You’re being a fundie right here, plain and simple. These observations are based purely on this thread, mind you, but here are the things I’m seeing in the OP: you believe what you believe, are beyond all hope of persuasion, don’t care about what the arguments are, constantly belittle things others believe, and–and here’s the kicker–actively try to convince others that what you believe is right and what they believe is wrong, evidently at the expense of personal relationships. You’re a fundie atheist, Cisco. I’m not sure if there’s a support group for that yet, but there probably should be.

I respect your beliefs, Cisco. I don’t agree with them by any means, but I respect them. So I don’t go about trying to evangelize you. I’d have reason to, if I were to; many Christians–evidently, your girlfriend is one of them–think you’re going to Hell because you don’t agree with us, so they’d do it for your own good. You, on the other hand, dissemenate your beliefs with cruelty and a complete lack of concern for the feelings of others. Calling someone a cultist is as bad as calling someone a babykiller. Stupid, mean, and unnecessary. I respect your beliefs, but you don’t respect mine. You think I’m stupid–or at least, illogical and irrational–just because I hold them. And that’s the biggest part of fundamentalism. Complete lack of concern for others.

You may claim not to know if your way is right, but you make it clear that any position involving faith of any sort–any belief in something that can’t be seen under a microsocope–is wrong. And you cruelly try to sway others to your position, and then you get on the Boards and make fun of those people to the people you think will agree with you.

This thread suggests that you’re insensitive, inconsiderate, rude, cruel, and, as jazzmine noted, “patently immature.” Like I said, Cisco, I hadn’t known a lot about you before, but I have to say that I lost a little respect today.

[AfterAugust]

One question Cisco:

If you’re not sure if what you believe in is right, how do you know your girlfriend is wrong?

I’d say you were more of an agnostic, rather than an atheist.

[yosemite]

Oh dear. Poor Cisco.

I saw this BBQ Pit thread coming. I knew I wasn’t going to be the one to start it, but I am not shocked that someone else did.

BTW, I don’t think “cultist” is as bad as “babykiller”, but it’s still a pretty bad insult.

[AfterAugust]

Cisco:

I think things would be better if you just kept your mouth shut when it comes to religion (when talking to your girlfriend, not posting here ;)).

I could say a lot of things about the LDS Church, but I have too many friends and family members of that denomination, and it just isn’t my place to say anything.

Do you get what I mean?

[Cisco]

Oh joy, I’ve been pitted.

Well, I certainly didn’t mean to get myself in this mess, but I’ll give it the old 1-2 and see if I can untangle it without backpeddling.

All quotes, unless otherwise noted, are from Mysphyst’s OP.

"Oh, honey, my beloved cultist, believer in whatever any idiot will sell you, how much I adore you. My respect for you is only tempered by your patent idiocy, and the fact that you’re a gullible moron who is clearly incapable of logical and rational thought. I respect you in the same way that I respect the Special Olympian: you’re a wonderful person, to be sure, and you can’t really be blamed for your predicament, but you’re not much in the thinking department. Now excuse me, dear idiot, but I can’t talk to you any longer. The Simpsons are on."

A few others expressed similar sentiments in the MPSIMS thread. I don’t know how or when or where I gave off the impression that I think like this but it’s pretty far from the truth. My girlfriend is a very intelligent person and she knows it and she knows that I know it. And what’s wrong with getting off the phone to watch a new Simpsons? I mentioned in the other thread that neither one of us is a big phone talker (I swear our average phone conversation is less than 20 seconds) and she had absolutely no problem with me saying “just come over, I gotta go, the Simpsons are coming on.” Sheesh I don’t know why you people have to keep bringing this up.

constantly belittle things others believe, and–and here’s the kicker–actively try to convince others that what you believe is right and what they believe is wrong

Again, I said in the other thread that I don’t bring up religion unless someone else throws the first punch. If you’re going to make a claim then that claim is fair game for open criticism. I’ve never once gone out on the street and handed out pamphlets and said things like “Excuse me sir, have you accepted nothing into your life?”

You think I’m stupid–or at least, illogical and irrational- -just because I hold them…Complete lack of concern for others.

Wrong. I think your beliefs are illogical. I know nothing about you. We could be best friends :).

And I certainly don’t have a complete lack of concern for others. Quite the opposite. If you got to know me you would find me to be a very caring and thoughtful individual. I know more christians than atheists, including many of my friends. It’s not like I hate you guys or refuse to talk to you. Hell, some of my favorite posters on this board (Libertarian, for example) are christian.

You may claim not to know if your way is right, but you make it clear that any position involving faith of any sort–any belief in something that can’t be seen under a microsocope–is wrong.

More “having no basis in fact” than “wrong.” What’s wrong with being skeptical?

** And you cruelly try to sway others to your position**

Cite?

I respect your beliefs, Cisco

Why? I think that’s the biggest issue/problem here. Why do you respect my beliefs? I’m honest enough to say that I don’t respect yours, and I don’t expect you to respect mine. I’m really having trouble here. Please define ‘respect’.

This thread suggests that you’re insensitive, inconsiderate, rude, cruel, and, as jazzmine noted, "patently immature."

I am NOT “patently”!

On preview I noticed that I forgot to address the ‘cult’ issue. A guy I used to work with used to always say “Religions are like cults, they just have more people.” I liked the quote and picked up on it. My girlfriend knows the quote and where it came from and doesn’t mind it. She usually just rolls her eyes and smiles and says “oh, whatever.”

As for the ‘ritual’ thing: like I said, I had never heard of advent until I started dating her, and they celebrate a bunch of other stuff I’ve never heard of either so I took to jokingly calling these “rituals.” She also has no problem with this.

Hence: cultist ritual.

Well, I hope I did good for my first pitting. Judges?

[Desmostylus]

Oh, boy. Is this going to end in tears.

Cisco, “caring and thoughtful” individuals, don’t make jokes of other people’s deeply held beliefs, causing them to roll their eyes and say “Whatever”.

Face, it you are acting like a bigot. You’ve even picked up the language: “many of my friends”, "not like I hate you guys or refuse to talk to you.

Ease off a bit.

[Cisco]

*Originally posted by Desmostylus *
**You’ve even picked up the language: “many of my friends”, "not like I hate you guys or refuse to talk to you.
**

Lol. You are right about that. I didn’t even realize I had used the language. But seriously, I don’t equate religion with things like race, sexuality, nationality.

Like I said earlier, it is of my opinion that if you’re going to openly express a belief then that belief is open for criticism. Science encourages and rewards criticism, but if you’re critical of religion then you are suddenly a bigot?

[Desmostylus]

Maybe you should equate religion with things like race, sexuality and nationality.

Then you might understand why people can get inflamed about it.

It’s something that needs to be approaced with a bit of sensitivity.

[Mysphyt]

I think you’ve hit upon my biggest problem in your post, Cisco: you don’t respect my beliefs. Don’t, can’t, won’t, doesn’t matter. There is no respect. And that’s why I’ve a problem with what’s happening here. Why do I respect your beliefs, Cisco? Not because of their content, certainly. I’ve nothing but respect for empiricism, mind you, but that’s not the reason I respect what you believe. I respect what you believe because I understand that you’re doing the best you can. If you’d lived a thousand years ago, you’d be shunned for your beliefs. More likely, you wouldn’t have them. Science, as we know it, just hasn’t been around that long. That’s not to say that how long a belief’s been held makes it valid or invalid, it simply says that had you been born in another time, you’d believe different things. So you’re doing what you can with what you have, and what you end up with is science.

I think this is something like what John Stuart Mill said about speech: “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Even if I didn’t agree with what you believed, I’d defend your right to believe it. I happen to respect the content of your beliefs as well as your right, but that’s something different. I don’t expect you to believe that what I believe is true. But the manner in which you express your disbelief of my beliefs is belittling and disrespectful, largely because of the following:

Originally posted by Cisco in the other thread.
In my eyes anyone who seeks out facts and uses logical and rational thought will easily come to the conclusion that Christianity is a fallacy and therefore I can’t respect anyone who refuses to come to that conclusion.

Thus: inasmuch as I do not believe Christianity to be a fallacy, I am in your eyes not someone who seeks out facts or who uses logical and rational thought. And, and this is the kicker, you don’t respect me. That’s what the quote says. I’m not making it up, I’m not twisting the words. That sentence came out of you.

And because I respect you and your right to have beliefs different from my own, I don’t try to evangelize you. And evangelism isn’t just standing on corners handing out Chick tracts, or whatever the atheist equivalent would be (biology textbooks? :p). Evangelism is simply trying to change the beliefs of those who believe differently than you do. And even that can be okay sometimes; I admit that I myself will sometimes tell people what I believe in the hopes that they would come to believe the same thing. But I am never hostile or insulting when I do so, because I respect their right to believe whatever the heck they want. What you do, though, is make it clear–abundantly clear, so much so as to be explicit–that you have no respect for the beliefs of Christians or for Christians themselves. In the situation described in your OP, you were both hostile or insulting–whether or not your girlfriend shrugged it off.

And I don’t think that whenever an opinion is voiced that opens it for criticism. I think it opens it for discussion, in which two parties compare and contrast positions, even arguing for one above another. But that’s not the same as criticism. Discussion says “Here are the reasons I think you’re wrong.” Criticism just says “You’re wrong, y’idiot.”

Religion is not science. It’s based on a whole set of principles. If I told you to defend the concept of the atom, but then said “But I discount all empirical evidence,” then it’d be tough for you to do it, wouldn’t it? Impossible, in fact. What you’re doing is saying “Defend the concept of God, but I discount the concept of faith.” Faith is the fundamental tenet of religion, as much as observation is the fundamental tenet of science. Your complete refusal to accept, respect, or try to accept or respect the idea of faith is largely what I have a problem with.

Religion is open to what you call criticism too–I’d be more than thrilled to explain to you what I believe and why, and the logic that has led me to that–but in order for that criticism to be valid, it must be offered as discussion, in which both parties are open and willing to accept as logic the other party’s logic. Even if I disagree with your position, even if it’s not likely that I’m going to change my position, I can recognize that yeah, it makes sense. There’s a reason you believe what you do. Your reason happens to be empirical evidence. You’re either unwilling or unable to recognize that I’ve got reasons for my beliefs too, and that they rely on things that include empirical evidence, but that also stretch beyond it.

And on preview:

Originally posted by Cisco
if you’re critical of religion then you are suddenly a bigot?

I didn’t use the word bigot, but look at your position. You’re not being critical of religion. You’re being intolerant of it. You’re saying that it’s not an acceptable position to adopt. Desmostylus makes an excellent point: religion is as important to many people as race, sexuality, and nationality. Saying that Christian is not an acceptable position is not wholly unlike saying that African-American is not an acceptable race.

[Cisco]

*Originally posted by Mysphyt *
**I think this is something like what John Stuart Mill said about speech: “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Even if I didn’t agree with what you believed, I’d defend your right to believe it. **

I thought Voltaire said that? Anyway, I completely agree with you there. I would hate to live in a world where you weren’t allowed to be a christian. But I would also hate to think that I live in a world that puts me down for criticizing your beliefs.

And I don’t think that whenever an opinion is voiced that opens it for criticism. I think it opens it for discussion, in which two parties compare and contrast positions, even arguing for one above another. But that’s not the same as criticism. Discussion says “Here are the reasons I think you’re wrong.” Criticism just says “You’re wrong, y’idiot.”

---

crit·i·cism P Pronunciation Key (krt-szm)
n.

The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.

The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
A critical article or essay; a critique.
The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism.

Criticism is certainly not just saying “You’re wrong, y’idiot.” It’s more like your definition of discussion.

[Desmostylus]

Cisco, read and respond to what Mysphyt said.

Don’t pick up on minor errors. That’s only a sensible response when someone is criticising your spelling and grammar, and maybe not even then.

Lift the game, buddy.

[Cisco]

I did read what Mysphyt said I responded to those points which I thought needed to be responded to. How long do you expect us to keep volleying:
You guys: Respect our beliefs.
Me: I don’t think I should have to respect your beliefs.
You guys: But they’re our beliefs, and you have to respect beliefs!
Me: Does not compute.
You guys: R-E-S-P-E-C-T, That is what I want for me!
?

[Desmostylus]

Okay, kid, you’re on your own.

[yosemite]

There are different kinds of “respect”, I think.

There’s the “I don’t agree with your beliefs, I don’t personally want anything to do with them, actually, but I know you have your reasons and I know they make sense to you, and I know you are a smart person. I can respect that you hold these beliefs for understandable reasons, even if I happen not to agree with the reasons. I see no need to bring up why or how I disagree with your beliefs all that much, and I don’t stew about your beliefs to the point where I need to start a whole thread about them, (and my feelings of contempt for them) on a message board.”

And then there’s, “I like you and all that, but I think that the beliefs you hold are really stupid. I mean, really really stupid. How can anyone believe that stuff? But, oh yeah, I respect you. But how can anyone really belief that crap? Your beliefs are bugging me so much I feel compelled to start a whole thread about it on a message board and express how it’s really hard for me to conceal my contempt for your heartfelt beliefs. But oh yeah. I respect you. Except your beliefs are really really really stupid, and why would I respect such stupid, really really stupid stuff like that?”

See the difference?

[Cisco]

Uhhh, Desmos, did you read what I wrote? I agreed with her on the freedom of speach/freedom of religion issue and then pointed out to her that what I call critcism is basically what she calls discussion. I didn’t point out any spelling or grammatical errors so I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.

Every other point she made has been addressed and addressed again. I’m asking you a serious question - exactly what point that she made do you want me to respond to?

sock it to me sock it to me sock it to me sock it to me

[Cisco]

yosemitebabe - you, or anyone else for that matter, has still failed to tell me why I should respect christian beliefs.

If I told you I believed I had a dragon in my garage, but couldn’t produce any evidence other than a book about this dragon and the fact that I reeeeeally believe that he is there, should you respect that belief? If so, why? If not, how is that different than me not respecting christianity?

Remember that to you, the average Southern Californian native, the idea of someone having a dragon in their garage seems pretty ridiculous.
Also remember, as I’ve stated many times already, I don’t go around shouting that anyone claiming to have a dragon in their garage is an idiot. I simply point out why I don’t believe in the dragon after they point out why they do.

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by Cisco *
If I told you I believed I had a dragon in my garage, but couldn’t produce any evidence other than a book about this dragon and the fact that I reeeeeally believe that he is there, should you respect that belief? If so, why? If not, how is that different than me not respecting christianity?

So you equate Christianity with someone believing that they have a dragon in their garage?

That’s your right, and to be honest, I can understand why you’d believe that, considering your background and your core beliefs. Really. I don’t have a problem with that part. And I have no desire to try to convince you otherwise.

The thing is, if I was involved with someone who had a belief that I felt was similar in absurdity to believing in dragons in garages, I would think they were loopy, and I would probably break up with them. I simply could not respect such a loopy belief. And yet you claim you do respect this woman, your girlfriend? I don’t believe you. Nothing you have said here or on the other thread is convincing me.

So the question is, how can you say you respect your girlfriend? She obviously has a really loopy nonsensical belief. Please explain this part to me. How do you respect anyone who believes in dragons in garages? I sure couldn’t.

[Liberal]

Cisco wrote:

yosemitebabe - you, or anyone else for that matter, has still failed to tell me why I should respect christian beliefs.

Let me ask you some questions.

[ul]
[li]What is the Christian moral imperative?[/li][li]What was Jesus’ new commandment to supercede the old?[/li][li]How did Jesus say His followers could be identified?[/li][li]What did Jesus answer when Pilate asked, “What is truth?”[/li][li]What did Jesus advise when an adultress was brought to Him?[/li][/ul]
If you know the answers to any of those, explain why they deserve disrespect. If you don’t know the answers, explain why you’re disrespecting something about which you are ignorant.

[Cisco]

I respect my girlfriend because she is intelligent. I respect her because we have great conversations. I respect her because she laughs at my jokes, and I laugh at hers. I respect her because she is an extremely hard worker and very dedicated to her job, while simultaneously staying on the dean’s list at school. I respect her because she’s stayed with my abrasive ass for 2 years and she respects me.

Like I said in the other thread, religion has never played a large part in my life (except for those few years in high school when I called myself a christian and really tried to believe) so I don’t feel like I have to respect someone’s beliefs to respect them. They’re two different entities in my opinion.

In her case, I guess I don’t think she’s stupid for believing. I think she’s fooling herself and she also lets her extremely self-imposing parents influence her a bit too much but she has admitted to me on many occasions that the only reason she believe is that she wants to believe. I can disagree with that and think it’s silly but still respect her as a person, can’t I?

[Cisco]

Lib - it’s been awhile since I’ve read the bible. The new commandment to supercede the old was the golden rule if I’m not mistaken. I make conscious decisions every day to try to follow this rule. It is, imo, the best thing that ever came out of the bible (assuming that it did indeed originate there.) Unless you’re talking about when he says to follow the 10 commandments and be born again. In that case I have no comment on the matter.
What did Jesus answer when Pilate asked “What is truth?”

link

That’s about all of your questions I can answer right now Lib but it seems to me that you’re trying to make an arguement for the positive message of the bible (correct me if I’m wrong.) I don’t disagree that most of the 10 commandments are good (don’t kill, don’t steal, etc), the golden rule is of course a favorite of mine (be nice to others), and several parts of the bible encourage a positive and friendly lifestyle. I just don’t need a book or an omniscient parent figure to tell me that.

I find it extremely absurd and outlandish when (and even you guys shouldn’t disagree with me on this point) people admit that basically the only reason they don’t rob/steal/kill…etc is because they don’t want to go to hell. That’s not moral, that’s something…way more twisted. Not saying any of you are like this, I just know alot of people like this and felt like mentioning it.