To defend, slightly, attitudes about rap: It’s not a new genre of music, but it’s still a little exotic for many of the people who are in positions of power. But I also think that a lot of us haven’t made the effort to de-exoticize it. The more rap or hip-hop I hear, the more I grasp what’s going on. It’s very similar to Frosted Glass’s point about people being uncomfortable around something “foreign.”
What I love about the popularity of rap and hip-hop is that they allow people to slowly learn and accommodate something that would otherwise feel “foreign.” It’s hard to think of a group of people as “other” when you listen to the same music and embrace the same vocabulary and fashions.
It sounds like your group had no intention of excluding anyone and would have welcomed newcomers regardless of race, but other people may not have known that. It doesn’t mean they held any particular preconceptions about black people.
When I was in college, one of my classmates was a native Russian. We spoke in class and I considered her a friend, but every time I saw her outside of class, she was with a group of Russian students, all speaking Russian to one another. An outsider observing her group would naturally assume that they didn’t wish to associate with anyone who wasn’t just like them. Even though I knew that they intended no hostility toward anyone, having to interrupt their conversation to say hello in English made me feel like an unwelcome intruder.
Any homogenous group can seem unfriendly and intimidating to an outsider, and it’s easy to assume that the best course of action is to just leave them alone.
Very interesting thread. And some excellent points have been shared and made. My take is that it all comes down to suspicion of “the other”. And for me,“otherness” these days may be much more defined by things other than skin color. For instance, I’m much less comfortable around a bunch of white skateboard rats or hippies in The Haight (SF, yes they’re stiil here) than I am with a bunch of black guys at my gym or walking in the financial district with a suit and tie. I’d be more comfortable living ion one of the very nice neighborhoods in Atlanta that is 80% black than in many neighborhoods that are 80% white.
The choices we make (how we dress, the music we listen to) seem to be better indicators of what a person is like than skin color. If you told me a friend of yours is a black man, I would have an impossible time getting any “sense” of the man. But as soon as I met him, just like anyone else I might meet, I would start to craft an understanding of who he is. No doubt some of my initial preceptions would be wrong, but the more time I spent with him the more chance I’d have to recalibrate my estimation of him and get closer to reality. This is true regardless of the person being black, white, or mauve.
In a way, I find it unfortunate that many of the things that have been embraced by the black culture are things that create even further differences. Rap music is one, although I agree that among the youth it has become a unifying common denominator, and that is a good thing, so my age may be a factor here, as well. Another point of differntiation is how many black athletes and music stars choose to express their success and spend their millions. Although I’m not into cars, I can understand someone buying a Porsche. I cannot understand the whole “bling-bling pimp my ride, $2,000 per rim” mentality. One is not inherently better than the other (I think they’re both wastes of money), but I percieve one as being an indicator of “otherness”. The same with clothing. Whether it be some of the eccentric threads worn by some blacks in professional sports or the gang-chic I see on the streets and on neighborhood b-ball courts.
My point is that there are things other than skin color that we react to, and that they can mistakingly, yet understandably, be attributed to skin color. Of course, YMMV.
The more things that there are that can be tightly associated with skin color, the further we will be from skin color becoming as (un)important as hair or eye color. As long as there is a noticeable economic disparity between races, and the more distinct the cultural differences—particulalry those which suggest that we value different things—the further away we are from a day when race truly won’t matter.
To try to equate PR with BB, as far as their transgression go, is to advertise a lack of understanding of one of them, if not both. As an athlete, PR exemplified the ideal of a baseball player. He gave his all 100% of the time and demonstrated a love of the game which was returned by the fans. Yes, he, like Bonds, broke a rule. But, unlike Bonds, not one that ever affected the outcome of any game. I think any kid should be encouraged to play the game the way PR did, not the way BB did. Bonds, while unquestionably a gifted athlete, has managed to have his athletic talents dwarfed by his arrogance, pomposity, and all-around assholishness. That has nothing to do with being black. It has everything to do with being a dick. On top of that (related to some degree, no doubt) is the fact that the numbers he has put up are tainted—by his own actions. Tainted, to the same degree in my estimation as McGuire’s. And McGuire, because of his actions in the senate, voluntarily entered the club of shithead schmucks that Bonds presides over. I cannot think of another baseball player that has acted in such a self-important and classless way as Bonds. So, he has attained the crown. As far as other sports there is T. Owens (uh-oh, another black,I must be racist) although I’m sure their are a few in Hollywood—Black and White alike—that could out-asshole the both of them.
Sorry about the rambling nature of much of this. But I have to run and wanted to share my thoughts.
One of them swore up and down he didn’t break the rules, but he agreed to a permanent ban. And later he admitted to being a liar. You have no idea if Rose changed the outcomes of games for his own purposes. And you don’t have proof that Bonds broke any rules at all. Which rules? When? Doing what? You have suspicions. I think the suspicions are justified, but they still aren’t proof.
But Rose, who was never the player that Bonds is, and who arrogantly assumed the rules didn’t apply to him, that he would be released from his agreement whenever he chose, and who sells his autograph outside of the Hall (such love for the fans, eh?), he’s defended to the death. Excuses are made for his behavior. It was fine if he was chasing Ty Cobb’s record, putting himself into the lineup for the sake of his own numbers, becoming the all-time outs leader.
Allegations against Bonds are given more credit than confessions by Rose. There is no way to make any two players similar enough to guarantee that comparisons are fair, but I think race plays a role in the vitriol against Bonds. And, just as I said in the Bonds thread, having a different opinion doesn’t mean that I just “don’t understand” baseball.
Actually, I completely agree with you. Rose is the biggest shithead and idiot associated with baseball. Since 1923 baseball has had one Golden Rule: DO NOT BET ON BASEBALL!. Rose violated this, lied about and has generally done everything possible to drive fan support away. I am also dumbfounded people still support him. Around 1973, Willy Mays and Mickey Mantle {the two biggest players in recent history at that point} where suspended from having anything to do with baseball because they were working as greeters in a casino. So Rose had a recent example of MLB’s no tolerance rules.
As far as the different opinion part, that was not said in reference to race but a the specific issues of doctored balls.
I don’t know about you, but I hardly know anyone who denigrates, belittles, etc. hip hop music–regardless of race–but most people I know (me included) laugh at death metal, boy bands and country. May be a geographical thing.
As far as politicians go, well, we know a couple who would probably be OK with country music, but rap and death metal seem about equally reviled at our higher social classes. if anything, I see rap and metal listeners and musicians as being in very similar situations. Again, may be a geocultural difference.
I’m not defending Rose for the decisions he made as a man, I defend what he did as an athlete. Bonds, aside from his failings as a man, which I don’t really care about in a discussion about athletics, made and makes horrible decisions as an athlete. He is a self-important ass who thinks that he is more important than his team or the game. He’s be just as big a self-important ass if he were white, hispanic, or asian.
Do you not see the distinction I make with Rose’s failings fallingoutside the arena of play? And therefore not being germaine to his estimation* as an athlete?* If you want to say there both liars, fine. Maybe they’re both complete assholes. Maybe Rose is a bigger one. Maybe there are 100 other players who have demonstrated greater shitheadedness outside the game. Even if Michael Jordan is a thief, a rapist and ticket scalper, that does not detract one iota from the his evaluation as a basketball player. And I’m sure that there are plenty of athletes who do many immoral/illegal things outside game time. But, surely you would agree that there is a difference between breaking rules that effect the outcome of a game and those that do not. Bonds fall into the former category, Rose the latter.
And as far as PR changing the outcome of his game for his own purposes, if you’re saying that he bet against his team and threw the game, I’d like to see a cite.
We don’t know if he bet on baseball as a player, but we knew know he did as a Manager. As a manager, even betting on your own team, you might manage differently on the nights you have a bet on the game. You might use your closer in a less than optimum time, leaving him unready to pitch in a game that no money is on. You might not rest your aging players against a weak team and opposing starter as you need to help your easy bet along. There are hundreds of decisions that might end in costing your team a few games by the end of a year. A lot of Pennants have been lost be a few games.
Most importantly, you should not dismiss the fact he broke the one Golden Rule of Baseball.
Even as someone who wouldn’t place country and hip hop at the top of my favorite musical genres list, I have respect for the music and enjoy a lot of artists from both. Actually I find country and hip hop very similar in certain ways. Both forms emerged as a uniquely American music style based on the lives of poor disenfranchised people. Both are heavily stereotyped, and the musicians are often assumed to embody all the traits they sing about - even though a large aspect of both forms is the ability to tell stories from the perspectives of those who are in the audience. Braggadocio, violence, and sexism all play a role in the lyrics, and there’s a segment of performers who tend to revel in the so-called negative aspects of the culture as a way of rejecting labels placed upon them by those outside of the audience. And both have audiences far beyond the “target demographic.”
What I’m referring to is the tendency of individuals who are not purveyors or observers of the cultural movement to get on a stage with sparkly “bling” and imitate Black vernacular speech patterns to poke fun at the genre. There’s plenty of that. I see it much like Al Jolson and his ilk performing blackface years ago. Note that I have no problem with rappers regardless of race - I’ve actually enjoyed seeing the international aspects of hip hop as well as Whites, Asians, and Latinos use the medium to communicate messages specific to certain communities. I also dislike seeing people mocking country musicians as toothless, ignorant wife-beaters. There’s a lot of variance in country in terms of topic and tone.
I just think it stings a little more when I see hip hop insulted, or country music insulted in such a way because it doesn’t just make fun of the artist, but also makes fun of the audience - typically an audience without much power. The way that hip hop is viewed today isn’t a million miles from how jazz was viewed in its heyday - music by and for arrogant, violent, drug users (think Miles Davis and John Coltrane). Eventually jazz came to be respected as an art form and one can see jazz performed in the most high-class environments. Of course, it’s been homogenized and made “less dangerous” because “safer” artists are afforded prominence. I wonder if hip hop will end up the same way?
Are Black athletes and musicians doing things with their money significantly different to what White/Latino/Asian/insert race or nationality here athletes and musicians are doing with theirs? You’re referring to the tendency of some musicians and athletes to popularize a trend that has permeated across American society. I see cars with expensive rims in the suburbs of Newton, Mass - the drivers aren’t Black and they aren’t musicians or athletes.
Regarding fashion, the whole swing fad that was so hot about ten years ago was, as I understood it, greatly derivative of the styles of Mexican American zoot-suiters in the 1940s. Again, people of color often present a style that is denigrated initially, but makes inroads into middle-class culture.
I think the problem with this is the assumption that the people who are together chose that option. I’ve heard the same said about people with disabilities - people often don’t approach or speak with them because there’s an assumption that they don’t want to be bothered or would rather be left to socialize with people like them. If you’re in a minority group in any context, it seems to me that the experience of being an outsider is fairly enduring. Even in a group of fellow outsiders, you’re still an outsider. Though I understand it is a hard judgment to make, deciding whether to approach a group of people different from you.
You make a very good point, and that may be reason enough to forever keep him out of the Hall of Fame. Persoanlly, I’d like to see his accomplishments as a player recognizeized in the Hall. Granted it’s hard for MBL to do that without inadvertently making a commentary on betting that they do not want to and should not make. My point is that as an athlete, he was a model player.
Choosing to take steroids. Choosing to not fess up. Choosing to be a dick to the media. Choosing to be a dick to fans. Choosing to be a distraction to his team. Choosing
How about every home run he’s hit in the past five years. We don’t know how many he would have hit without steroids, so I can’t cull out how many are “extra” or in which games. One of the sad things is that we’ll never know just how great a home run hitter he could have been without the juice. Sad for him. Sad for baseball fans.
Fine. On the one hand you have the fact that he bet on baseball and lied about it. On the other you have the way he played the game, day-in, day-out. If you want to believe that he actually threw a game as a player, fantasize away. Or provide some proof other than that he lied about a tangential issue. Is your need to give Bonds company in the shithead category so great that you have to resort to such reaching?
I apologize for my part in this hijack, hopefully we can get back to the main thrust of the OP.
You do not have proof of any of this. There is evidence. There is no proof. This isn’t a standard you will allow for Rose. If I speak against Rose, you want proof, not supposition. I’m asking for the same thing regarding things you claim as fact against Bonds.
And again, to bring this back to this thread, why is it that Bonds, whose rule-breaking hasn’t been proved, is treated worse than Rose, whose rule-breaking has been proved? We can’t even point to specific rules Bonds was supposed to be breaking a few years ago, but the treatment is worse. Not just by you, but by the media, by many fans, by average non-fans.
Does race play a role? I think it does. Why do I think it does? Because white players are simply not judged the way Bonds is judged. Bonds is judged for his attitude. He’s arrogant. Roger Clemens is arrogant, but he doesn’t catch this flak. Kenny Rogers attacked a cameraman and he doesn’t catch this flak. Jeff Kent has been a cancer everywhere he’s played and he doesn’t catch this flak. The only player I can name who was so constantly belittled, judged, and sneered at was Albert Belle. Again, a difficult personality, no doubt. We even had a joke on usenet about how the media would manage to bring Belle into conversations that had nothing to do with him. It was a running gag.
Despite his being the greatest hitter of this generation, you belittle Bonds’s play and say he makes horrible decisions as an athlete. Only, as an athlete, he has pretty much kicked the collective ass of MLB. As a human being? I don’t know the man, and I don’t particularly trust sportscasters to present me with an unbiased look. I don’t particularly like what I see, but I also don’t particularly like the Yankees or Bobby Cox.
It seems so to me that what you see in Newtown is the adoption of what has been portrayed as hip in music and sports. And it also seems to me, as I watch the NBA playoffs and the interviews that surround them, that the black athletes do dress differently than most of their white counterparts. One guy, (David Jones, I think), had on a leopard blazer.
Interesting, I though the zoot suits came out of Harlem and the black culture there in the '40s. Regardless, I don’t know what point you’re making though. The look you are talking about hot among a certain group 60 years ago and has long since been dead. When it adopted a few years ago it was little more than costume, worn when going to swing clubs or parties. It was very big here in SF. I think a better example might have been the baggy jeans of the hip-hoppers, which has had a more pronounced an longer lasting effect on everyday clothing.
Bonds, a man who has been grooming his body carefully for decades so that he could reach the peak of his athletic ability, took substances from some sketchy lab without having any idea what they were? Bonds really used “the clear” and “the cream” without asking what they were or why his muscles were growing huge? Give me a fucking break. He’s testified that he took the stuff, he just doesn’t have the balls to fess up to knowing it was illegal. This isn’t a KMart pharmacy that accidentally slipped steroids into a calcium supplement, this is a company that’s been torn limb from limb for intentionally distributing illegal drugs. Bonds is a lot of things, but he ain’t dumb. I’ve sampled more substances than the FDA and the only type of quarterback I could ever hope to be is the Monday-morning armchair kind–and I wouldn’t do that.
I think you an I discussing this is going to be pointless. I am of the opinion that Bonds would be perceived the same if he was white. I think the assholedom he’s achieved based his the choices he’s made has made whatever biases you think may have been there moot. I believe that. Sorry.
Does some degree of racism exist in society at large? Of course. In many areas and in varying degrees. But you seem to want that fact to inoculate Bonds (or any black, I guess), from enjoying the full assholedom that have achieved. There is a point, even if some people use Bonds’s race against him, that his actions are so distasteful that people forget abou the blackness. That is Bonds.
And you still do not seem to get my point that you can’t compare Bonds and Rose the way you attempt to. It’s apples and oranges. Both have delivered on the field. One’s transgressions effected the game and his team, the other’s had nothing to do with it. Every accomplishment of Pete Rose was accomplished 100% by him. Not so for Bonds. As a player on the field, I would have no problem telling my son (if I had one) play baseball like Pete Rose. Hell, play any sport the way Pete Rose played baseball. And I wouldn’t have a problem holding up Bonds as something to avoid (unless you go back to when he first came into the league). And I would hold Bonds (modern day) up as an example to not emulate. He ostracizes his team and the fans, not to mention his accomplishments could never truly be attributed to his talent alone. And I would hold them both up as examples of people who have made mistakes and are rightly paying for them. That’s why, son, you should deliver on the promises you make, not lie, own up to mistakes when called on them, and overall, don’t be an asshole.
Yet, you slap Rose with the idea that while he was on the field playing harder than anyone that he probably threw some games. No proof. Hell, not even a specific allegation, just the fact that he lied about a tangential issue. Simply amazing.
It really seems that you are hungry for a white player to keep Bonds company in the hall of shame. And it aint going too well.
