international observers shot during peace march -- the violence must stop!

Actually, the BBC crew was fired upon by Israeli soldiers, who would not even let them get into their clearly labelled vehicle, they just kept firing until the crew escaped on foot, still filming. They were playing the tape of the entire scene yesterday on BBC World news. Something very similar also happened with another crew, I can’t remember from which channel though.

Nonsense, Sharon does not have his country’s support in this, as a matter of fact he faces dissent even from inside his own government over the methods employed over the last year. Yediot Aharonot, Israel’s largest daily newspaper, blasted Sharon just the past month, citing an opinion poll that indicated 72% of its respondents said the government had failed to meet their expectations. They were just about the kindest voice reported in Israeli Media Criticize Government (BBC online). I expect the support has sank even farther by now.

Where do you get that from? Sharon’s position has always been to give as little of anything as possible to the Palestinians (including and especially land). It’s always been his official position to follow Israeli Jewish interests at the expense of those of the Palestinians. This is one of the reasons why this nutcase was elected, because people expected him to kick the Palestinians into submission after the patient negotiations of Barak apparently failed (IMHO they didn’t so much fail as they were cut short–I think a lot of Arafat’s “refusal” rhetoric was the kind of Middle-Eastern bluster required to establish both face and the operating parameters of negotiations. After all, while Barak’s offer was extremely generous, it did not address a couple of key points very important to the Palestinians).

What restraint? I have seen little of it since Sharon rose to power! His lack of coherent leadership and restraint has allowed the situation to approach the severity of the 1967 wars.

Of course that is true, no one is saying that Israelis are murdering psychos. But that is hardly a defence of Sharon’s sanity or his tactics.

The issue is more complicated than that, and your statement above could be applied to both sides. Don’t forget that for several months now Sharon has been at work disabling Arafat’s security infrastructure, deliberately crippling him. Sharon cannot confront Arafat without pressing military might, because Arafat has a long history of gathering support and surviving the direst times, and he would no doubt survive the ineffectual Sharon. Sharon’s plan consists of eliminating the Arafat threat, but of course he can’t kill him (that could mean all-out war, or at the very least a dramatic rise in support for the Palestinian cause). Instead he has spent the last several months pressuring Arafat to curtail terrorism while launching regular attacks against Palestinian Authority security targets. The same security that he insist crack down on terrorism, if that makes sense.

At the same time, terrorism is the tool of choice of extremists like Hamas, not necessarily of Arafat (although Arafat may possibly have resorted to such means some of the many times his back was put against the wall). There is still no evidence to suggest that Arafat is the mastermind of a significant portion of acts of terror, as Sharon suggests (but then again Sharon wants Arafat out and someone less hard-bitten to lead the PA).

It’s also incorrect to say that Arafat and the PA have done “absolutely nothing” to stop terrorists. Numerous suspected or wanted terrorists were arrrested a number of times, in spite of the compromising nature of such actions as regards the PA and Arafat himself, who lose popular support when those who are perceived as “freedom fighters” are seen to be detained by their own side. Because of the tensions that arise from such detentions, and the further splintering of extremist groups like Hamas, and because Israel has never expressed will to negotiate following Palestinian security crackdowns, arresting “freedom fighters” is simply not a high PA priority when Palestinians see that all that stands between them and the might of Israel are these same terrorists.

It is hardly commendable, but negotiation is impossible when one side holds all the power; so, in a twisted and bizarre way, the terrorism of extremist groups actually preserves a rudimentary balance of power, with both sides able to threaten and negotiate (if only they would stop fighting now that both have proved that they both have teeth).

Sharon probably won’t last much longer, and I can see the elegance and restraint of someone like Simon Peres appealing to Israelis far more than Sharon’s rabid and ineffectual approaches. We’ll just have to see what happens, but don’t forget, both sides are wrong here, yet both sides have valid claims.

>> but don’t forget, both sides are wrong here,

Yes, but one side is more wrong than the other

>> yet both sides have valid claims.

Yes, but one side’s claims are more valid that the other.

If two people are arguing whether the world is round or flat, they are both wrong but there are degrees in how wrong they are and I would say that, even though the world is not a perfect sphere, it comes much closer to being round than to being flat. Therefore I would side with the one who says it is round. I have no time for people who would argue they are both equally wrong and both equally right.

At any rate, regardless of who is wrong and who is right, life and politics are an exercise in the realm of what is possible and where actions carry consequences. Certain acts carry certain consequences without regard to right or wrong.

The Palestinians through Arafat have rejected the peace that was offered them. They have chosen war as a means to resolve this conflict because they thought they could do better. They wanted a good war better than a bad peace. They have chosen war, and now they are getting it. It seems to me they made a mistake. It is sad mistake but it carries consequences.

Both of these scenarios are very troubling, but is the Palestinian Authourity a signatory of the Geneva Conventions?

Propaganda points the Palestinians seem to have won:

  1. Israel has dismantled Palestinian security and therefore Palestinian security can’t arrest militants.

Palestinian security forces = Tanzim militia = al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade = the very same people who are carrying out a large fraction of the bombings (and who swear allegiance to Arafat). Even when they did represent a cohesive security force, they never arrested militants except to put them in jail for a week or so before letting them go.

  1. Arafat is completely isolated and can’t do anything like this to reign in terror.

He can start by showing good faith and turning over the terrorists in there with him, including the murderers of the Israeli tourism minister, and the head of Tanzim (who appears to have been directing Iraqi payment to the families of suicide bombers and arranging military aid from Iran including the Karine A ship). And if he wants to take direct action, he can use his cell phone. Or wave a white flag and come on out.

  1. The Palestinians have been forced to suicide bombing as that is the only course of action left to them under a cruel Israeli occupation.

There have been plenty of nationalist movements, plenty of military occupations, plenty of struggles for independence. None of them have resorted to suicide bombings and random acts of violence against civilians. There is nothing unusual about the Palestinian cause that precludes nonviolent tactics or even military attacks against military fixtures.

  1. The Palestinian terrorism is somehow morally equivalent (or even more morally correct) than the brutal Israeli actions in the territories. Or, the Israeli occupation amounts to “state terrorism” while the Palestinian suicide bombers are not worthy of condemnation.

Well, the Geneva Convention gives conditions for conducting military operations in civilian-rich areas. There is nothing against the law, or immoral, against military operations in which some civilian casualties are incurred. The military benefit must outweigh the risks. In the past two weeks, Israel was under a constant attack by suicide bombers, and the PA was powerless (or refused) to do anything against this wave. Survival of the state was at risk, so invasion was warranted.

This is war. The right of Israeli citizens to live in peace is at risk. There is no difference from Syrian shelling of Kibbutzim in the Galilee or Jordanian mortar shelling of West Jerusalem before the 1967 war and the deployement of Palestinian suicide bombers in the past 18 months. Provocation and attacks are met with force everywhere else in the world, and there is no reason to think it won’t be the same here. If Arafat can’t or won’t control attacks, then it is up to Israel to guarantee her own safety. This isn’t about the Palestinian people, or the necessity of Palestinian statehood, or even how just their cause is. Extremists are fighting a war against Israel, and Israel has to fight back. Since the military benefit from getting the extremists is high, actions against civilian areas are warranted under the Geneva Convention.

This is war. I would like to see how well peace activists would fare in the Korean DMZ, in the Ardennes, in Guadalcanal, or at the Berlin Wall. They wouldn’t just be warning shots at their feet.

If these people are protesting for “peace”, why are they only protesting (and hindering) the Israeli side? Why only in Ramallah? If they were against violence, why aren’t they protesting in Jerusalem, Haifa, and Netanya against the suicide bombers?

Because the bomber is an instant, wile the occupation is a constant.

The Palestinians are under a constant threat of being wiped out, slowly. They think, rightly, that Sharon’s action is to eliminate them, or bring them to their knees more quickly under the guise of eliminating terrorism. He will rudely learn that it is hard to bring people to their knees when his knee is constantly on their throats.

**

Maybe any particular bomber is an instant. But the threat of a bomber is certainly a constant.

All they have to do is stop their violence. If that were to happen they’d have a stronger position at the bargaining table then any amount of bombing would give them. Israel has shown that it is willing to negotiate for peace. The Palestinian authorities have shown that they’re either don’t have the power to make peace agreements or don’t have the desire.

Marc

Ed the (Canadian) Sock nails the Middle East situation perfectly:

There’s more. Read it, it’s good.

Hmmm, my last post isn’t showing up in the “Last Post” column of the main GD page…

So where is the evidence that Israel is trying to “wipe out” the Palestinians, slowly or otherwise?

Isn’t it the Arabs (not all) who have pledged to drive them into the sea? Doesn’t the PLO charter still call for the destruction of Israel?

The answer to both questions is yes.

Israel is fighting for her very existance, to expect her to do otherwise is ridiculous.

Sharon’s asides to his general would be a good evidence of his desire to crush the PA.

I expect Israel to defend herself. But Sharon until the seventh day did not have his troops enter Suicide bomb central, Jenin. He was instead destroying the infrastructure of the entire people.

Um, you originally stated that Israel was trying to “wipe out” the Palestinians. Now it’s Sharon’s “desire to crush the PA”. So which is it? The two are not the same.

Well, judging from some responses it seems like these are propaganda points that Israel has also won, not just the Palestinians!

Well yes, because as mentioned earlier every time arrests were made by the PA under threat from Sharon, the threat never relented, conditions showed no signs of improving, Israel was perennially unsatisfied, and keeping the suspected terrorists in custody was doing more damage to the PA than anything else. And, as for the security forces of the PA, I think you are wrong on that count. Palestinian security, with its nominal seat of authority centralized but its daily operations handled separately on an area-by-area basis by authoritative delegates not necessarily under the control of the central authority, has been in the process of complete decentralization under the tender care of Israeli attacks for several months now, and the several groups involved are themselves effectively decentralized (one of the reasons so many different extremist groups are active).

This is not a completely accurate interpretation. Sharon wants Arafat either out of the country or under his control, which is what he is attempting to accomplish at present. Sure, Arafat could surrender, but that would just play into Sharon’s plans and put the Palestinians at the mercy of a hawk that has made very clear what he thinks of Palestinians and what they deserve. Also, even before Israel stormed Arafat’s compound, his power was under question precisely because of the severe decentralization taking place. At this point he could comply with those Israeli demands he is able to fulfil with his diminished power, but satisfying those demands brings about nothing but the further subjugation of Palestinians and the submission of PA and Arafat to the man most hated by Palestinians. It is not an option in this situation, and Sharon knows this very well.

Unfortunately, the terms “freedom fighter” and “terrorist” are often synonymous, and depend largely on the point of view of the inquirer (think of the KLA!). Such terrorism is nothing new and has taken place just about everywhere where particular or general freedoms/autonomy are in question. I agree that peaceful means are infinitely favourable to something as despicable as a bomb in a crowded cafe, but the Palestinians simply do not have any power to resist US-backed Israel. Diplomacy does not work as long as the issue is heavily polarized, we have already seen that. One of their only effective tools to balance the disproportionate might of Israel is terrorism. It’s disgusting, but in a sense the Palestinians have no other avenue (besides, calling for restraint in Israel/Palestine has traditionally been a waste of breath owing to the long-standing animosity between the two groups, which will simply keep flaring up until it is addressed properly).

Now, I completely agree that terrorism is counter-productive, but what will the current Israeli military action achieve exept perhaps a temporary lull in terrorism activity while the extremist groups reorganize? People are just getting angrier or dying; these are not ingredients for peace or stability.

This argument actually further polarizes the situation and strikes me as apologetic. If the Israelis are willing to pour more and more violence into Palestine and hope to crush all (effectively decentralized!) resistance, they are hardly making a contribution to peace or to its foundations with their actions; on the contrary, they will probably feel a painful backlash at some point in the future, probably from one of the semi-autonomous groups that will spring up fueled by rage against Israel’s actions. Even Israel as a whole does not believe that the present violent course of action makes sense, whether one agrees or not that bombing an unarmed, disposessed, and besieged population is worthy of approval.

Anyway, Sharon’s primary aim seems to be to cripple the Palestinians, or he would have targeted actual terrorism long ago as opposed to the only security force that could stand in the way of terrorism. Sharon has effectively been encouraging the proliferation of terrorist acts with the attacks of the last months, and it is not surprising that suicide bombings have spiked recently.

Sailor, regarding your assessment, now that you have figured out exactly who is “more wrong” and whose claim is “more valid,” will you be working on “who started it”?

You have no right to categorize me. Anybody who has read my posts knows that I am pro-peace and anti-violence. You are ignoring the threads in which I have expressed great admiration for pro-peace Israelis. Anti-Israeli policy does NOT mean “anti-Israel.”

The international observers/peace protesters are heroes for saving lives. If they hadn’t pushed their way into the compound on Sunday, everybody in that compound might have been dead by now. (The shelling and the “surrender or die” demands stopped soon after they got in. By the way, at least one of the peaceniks in the compound is a Jewish Israeli.) Their presence in the “closed” city of Ramallah helps prevent atrocities by both sides. This is especially important now that the press has been banned from Ramallah. There may not be any “Israeli death squads,” but the presence of the internationals helps make sure of that. In offering their bodies as “human shields,” they are like the white volunteers who went to Mississippi for “Freedom Summer” in '64, or the American and European brigadistas who went to Nicaragua in the '80s.

Good for these “medders”! I love these meddling, interfering jerks for their courage and commitment. Martin Luther King was a meddler. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” (Letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1963.) If King and Gandhi were alive, they might be in Ramallah today. If and when they come on a speaking tour of the States, I will be there hailing them as heroes.

Every time the international peace protesters confound the IDF with their non-violent tactics, they are setting an example for young Palestinians. Maybe, just maybe, the next time a Palestinian boy or girl thinks of strapping on some C-4 and taking some Israelis with him/her, he/she will think of what the internationals did this week and think, “Hmmm, maybe I don’t have to die…”

Don’t you WANT the Palestinians to learn non-violent protest tactics? The internationals are teaching it to them!

Did you see Wednesday’s news? Israeli peaceniks, getting beat up and dragged off by the cops. It’s not just foreigners!

Bring back Mubarak Awad!!!

The point of putting terrorists in custody is to prevent them from engaging in terrorism. What you seem to be saying is that the lives of the innocent Israelis being murdered by terrorists are unimportant next to the supreme importance of avoiding political damage to the PA.

The Palestinians have no right to implement what they have repeatedly, publicly stated to be their aim - to destroy Israel. There is therefore no moral equivalence between actions by Israel in defence of its people, and suicide bombings and terrorism by the PA in furtherance of its aims.

** I entirely agree. Why then are the defensive actions of Israel loudly condemned, but the suicide bombings, deliberate targetting of civilians, and terrorist horrors of the PA ignored? Don’t they make people angry? Don’t they make people die?

The PA publicly promised to crack down on terrorism. This was the ingredient they promised to provide for ‘peace and stability’. They have not done so.

** To describe the Palestinians as ‘unarmed’ or ‘besieged’ strikes me as silly. They have upgraded their bombs from home-made to high explosive. And everyone and their brother seems to have an AK-47 slung over their shoulders.

Do you seriously think these people are innocent bystanders? Please tell me you are not so naive.

Perhaps they would not need to be arrested so often if Arafat and his ilk did not let them go so often.

If your definition of the PA abiding by its agreement to end terrorism is “holding a few of the worse for a couple of days and then letting them go”, then Sharon and his government have every justification in the world to act. The PA either cannot, or will not, do anything effective to end the attacks on Israel. Arafat either wants to, but can’t, or can, but doesn’t want to. In either case, Sharon wants to. We are finding out if he can.

This kind of thing just makes me sick. The Palestinians blow up school children and announce that they want to destroy Israel. Their apologists say “Well, you have to expect that with such a severe imbalance of power between the big bad Israelis and the poor oppressed Palestinians.” Then some batch of anti-Israeli propagandists has a scared Israeli soldier shoot at the ground in front of them because he can’t read minds and figure out that this time they aren’t harboring terrorists, and that counts as a major atrocity. Sheesh.

Regards,
Shodan

No, I can safely say that you have almost the entire post wrong. I’ve been gone for a while and current events have gallopped on, but anyway.

Not what I am saying at all. But without a balance of power, which frankly has NEVER existed inside modern Israel/Palestine, things just get worse. The disenfranchised get more bitter and resort to suicide bombs, and the oppressors become more oppressive and do what the Israelis have been doing for a while now.

I think that is a red herring of an argument. The PA has stated repeatedly that they do not want any such thing as destruction for Israel, nor is any such goal even remotely practical should it actually be their intent. But, the same way the hawk Sharon has not ceded a single step with his very questionable actions, the PA does not wish to give anything away without concluded negotiations (otherwise what do they negotiate with?). Over the past months the PA have been calling for normalized relations and peace with Israel repeatedly. That certainly does not include silliness such as destroying Israel, which is something that quite frankly the Palestinians could not accomplish, even though I recognize that there has been a lot of rhetoric and anger about this especially at the grassroots level.

Apart from Israeli propaganda, what solid evidence do you have that the PA carried out or organized suicide bombings? I do not dispute that there are links between PA and certain outfits that are accused (and most probably guilty) of terrorism, but saying that the PA is responsible for setting up these bombs, especially at a time when the PA desperately needed peace, seems far-fetched.

Besides, neither suicide bombings nor laying waste/siege to an entire region may be considered moral. There’s enough unresolved debate on the issue to suggest that there is no consensus on such actions even being necessary. Of course, Palestinian extremists say that the suicide bombings are moral, and Sharon and his camp claim that their offensive is moral, but this is simply smoke, nothing but opinion. Neither of these courses of actions are moral.

In spite of the furore of propaganda, the actions of Israel have not been defensive, rather they have been offensive-preventive-pre-emptive. But, at any rate, who says that the suicide bombings are ignored?? The PA decries them–splintered and battered as they are, I hear them condemn suicide bombings whenever one occurs. The rest of the world, likewise, is horrified by such terrorism. But it’s terrorism, it’s underground by its very nature, it’s not state-sanctioned violence. It’s easier to direct criticisms at a state than at bands of underground terrorists (look at Northern Ireland in the past or the Basque region to this day!).

They have cracked down. And, when their actions gained them nothing from Israel and danger from their own camp, they gave up on it. It would probably have helped if Israel had left the PA security forces intact so they could do their job. Instead, over the past year the PA has had enough to worry about, what with Israeli rockets systematically destroying their ability to act or exist.

Hm, on the other hand I see a few guns, but nowehere near “everyone and their brother”. As for explosives, some *terrorist *groups seem to have obtained some, sure. That still doesn’t change the fact that the average Palestinian is unarmed and has to survive under a barrage of fire from a vastly more powerful force that is not particularly concerned about Palestinians. They do not even enjoy the protection of security forces or militias. All they can rely on, sadly enough, are rag-tag groups of resistance fighters that may or may not not be terrorists, just outraged and threatened civilians depending on the situation.

Please tell me you are not so naive as to think that helicopters, tanks, and rockets can tell the difference between innocent and guilty, or that when buildings are pummelled with fire or razed to the ground innocent bystanders by the dozen are not killed needlessly. This is also considered a primary reason that the Israeli army took to firing at journalists eager to report on this conflict; better not to have observers around to hurt Sharon’s cause.

Well, “the world” doesn’t think so. The rest of the above is not really an argument, it’s been discussed.

Even though I have seen terrorists and extremists behave in such a manner, and even though Palestinians are not very happy in general about the situation and Israel, I am not aware that Palestinians generally speaking are the terrorists your prose suggests.

This is a perfectly valid argument, although you deliberately dressed it up with irony so as to make it difficult to take it seriously. There is no justification for suicide bombings or even Israel’s use of force and subjugation; but there are reasons that these things occur, and denying such reasons is probably the most counter-productive thing possible.

No, it doesn’t, but this time the irony in your comment screws its point the other way, but still in the wrong direction. It’s a tricky tool, irony. If you really think that the worst the Israelis have done is shoot at the ground in front of protesters, I would have to question your sources of information.