The question of ethics depends on the culture you live in. In the Navajo (Dineh) tradition, the placenta is kept and given to the child later on. There’s a spiritual reason for this, but I don’t understand it well enough to explain it to you.
In my culture, the placenta is usually discarded. There is now a good medical reason to save the umbilical cord, so sometimes that is preserved.
Can you please provide references that traditions in othe rparts of the world involve eating the placenta? I notice that Cecil in his column notes that some Native America groups had placenta rituals but stopped short of eating the placenta.
So what traditions in which other parts of the world involve etaing the placenta?
And can you also explain why not eating an expelled organ that is very likely contaminated with the faecal matter expelled at birth is ‘against mother wit’?
goodness! i do hope there is a kosher rule involved here.
Animals eat their placentae routinely. (Picture a cow placidly munching on its placenta. I used to see that sight regularly as a kid.) Presumably there’s an instinct to eat the placenta. Do humans feel the same urge? (How about it, ladies?)
Blake, I already linked the relevant Straight Dope column and made my baseless assertions as vague as possible. From what little I could gather, this is a at best a vegan/hippie thing and mmmmmmmaybe elsewhere.
Was that ethical, in a point of a hypothetical discussion? Well, you tell me.
As for the second explanation, I assert the same mother wit that reasons why its okay for people to drink unpasteurized goat milk and eat raw chicken eggs. Mother wit weighs all kinds of risks.
As a hippie who runs with vegans, I can assure you that eating the placenta is in no way widespread or mainstream among the counter-culture. Most of us do save the placenta, yes, but we save it for burial underneath the roots of a tree, generally a new sapling planted to mark the occasion of the birth.
Trust me, placenta stew sounds just as gross to us as it does to you. *This *mother never had an urge or “wit” to eat either of her children’s placentas, although I do think they’re neat, fascinating organs to look at.
What if it’s cloned flesh grown in a vat or something ?
BTW, the ideas not original with me; Arthur C. Clarke wrote about this, and someone else wrote a similar story called Pleased to Meat You; I don’t recall the author. Plus, the Glig from Niven’s Draco Tavern stories did the same thing. They loved the taste of human flesh, but were unwilling or forbidden to just grab and eat humans ( plus, the supply of humans was a long ways away ). So, they bought the rights to some human visitor’s DNA, without bothering to mention why they wanted it.
I don’t know from ethical, but it was certainly ignorant. And we are supposed to be fighting ignorance, not perpetrating it.
You said that not eating the placenta was against traditions in other parts of the world. You have no reason to belive that is the case. It is an untrue and ignorant statement. Case closed.
What does the even mean?. Perhaps you had better tell us all what definition of “mother wit” you are using in this debate?
Animals eat their own offsping too. It’s normal for a queen to eat at least a couple of the kittens in every litter. So what point exactly are you attempting to make here? That it’s ethical to eat one’s own children? That every act performed by a post-partum animal is evidence of the exercise of wit?
I’m confused. Please elucidate.
I look at ethics vs. morality in the classical sense: ethics concerns that which is between a man and his fellow man; morality concerns that which is between a man and his god (for theists) or conscience (for atheists). For example, a man in the privacy of his bedroom masturbating to pictures of horses may well be commiting an immoral act if it bothers his conscience or goes against the teachings of his god; however, there is no harm done to other men in their homes, and therefore his action is not unethical.
Blake. Ey, man. Don’t close my case… and get off it, too. SOMEBODY out there is making placenta stew and it’s not in MY world!! Cecil said so!! Don’t get all mad at me for postulating a perfectly plausible possibility for the sake of an argument. Hmf. I said, “near as I can tell.” Dem’s weasel words. If you don’t know what mother wit is, bring it up with yours. (Must… resist…urge … to… query your paternity.)
Whynot. I in no way assumed this was behavior “mainstream of the counterculture.” I assumed this behavior was in the fringe.
Liberal. … except when other men somehow find out about the horse-lover’s fantasies and decide to prosecute him on the basis of some morality law. I guess my personal notion of morality versus ethics isn’t too far from the classical definition.
Therefore, one should eat all substances excreted by one’s body: semen, earwax, boogers, menstrual blood…
I dunno. I’ve never seen a cow eat its calf. I have seen plenty of cows happily munching on placenta.
The point being that eating the placenta seems to be instinctive for all mammals, whether carnivore, omnivore or herbivore. You implied that it might be an unhealthy thing to do. If that were so, evolution would have eliminated the practice in other animals long ago.
See above. Eating the placenta must not be unhealthy (as you implied) and seems to be an instinct-driven way of conserving proteins and vitamins.
It’s ethical to refrain from eating the placenta, because it prevents the possible complete and utter gross-out people will experience if they discover what you did.
Can we have a reputable reference or that claim?
Uh huh.
And if sunbathing were unhealthy evolution would have eliminated the practice in other animals long ago.
And if eating large amounts of animal fat were unhealthy evolution would have eliminated the practice in other animals long ago.
So by your bizarre ‘logic’ neither subathing nor eating huge quantities of saturated fats is unhealthy. Because if they were unhealthy evolution would have eliminated the practice in other animals long ago. All those doctors and medical scientists who say those things are unhealthy have been lying to us. Good for you for working that out.
You have combined a total misunderstanding of science and a logical fallacy into one totally illogical argument.
First off evolution doesn’t eliminate behaviour simply because it is unhealthy. Evolution doesn’t even eliminate behaviour even if it is universally fatal. Evolution eliminates traits because they provide a reproductive disadvantage and no more or less.
And even if evolution did eliminate traits just because they are unhealthy the fact that a trait is healthy for other mammal species is no indicator that it is healthy for humans. You are simply attempting to utilise the Natural Law fallacy. That’s not a logically valid argument. All other mammals lick their babies arses clean with their tongues too. All other mammals defecate without washing their hands. All other mammals do all sorts of things that are demonstrably unhealthy for humans to do.
You simply can not logically conclude that because all other mammals do something it cannot be undesirable or disadvantageous behaviour for humans. That is the Natural Law fallacy in its purest form, and totally logically invalid.
Evidence please?
But you didn’t speak of your world and their world, you spoke of other parts of the world. You said that traditions in othe rparts of the world involve etaing thepacneta. Do you or do you not have evidence that traditions od people in other parts of the world involve eating placenta any more than traditons of people livingon your own block?
No you didn’t. Nowhere in this entire thread di you say “near as I can tell”. Yiu made the statemntof fact that “against… traditions in other parts of the world, most American women happily pass on eating the placenta.” No mention of that being opinion, no use of the words "“near as I can tell”.
Can we just clear this up so we can move on? Are you now conceding, to the best of your knowledge, no other parts of the world have traditions involving eating the placenta that are not also presnet in your own neighbourhood?
No. This is Great Debates, not the forum for your baseless opinion. You introduced the term ‘mother wit’ in framing this topic. Are you able to explain to us what it means? Or is it just a meaningless term you made up to try to appear erudite?
What? My tales of placenta-munching cows didn’t do it for you? Here you go:
If you need a breakdown of the proteins and nutrients in human placenta, well Thailand is on the case.
Speaking of science and logic, since you’re the one asserting that eating a placenta is or may be unhealthy, seems to me the burden of proof is on you. So if I may quote you:
This place has the oddest debates. :eek:
No, they don’t. We all know that some mammals eat the placenta. That does not in any way support your claim that all mammals do so.
Here you go:
[/quote]
I asked for a reputable reference. That is not a reputable reference.
It is simply a “personal experience of an ‘unmentionable’ practice”. And written by a nurse, not a zoologist. There is a bibiolgraphy, but no mention of what texts support any specific claim, if any. IOW it isn’t even referenced. We don’t even know if the author is even claiming that there is any evidence to support the claim that all mammals eat their placenta, much less how their reference reached that conclusion.
Or in short it’s some nurse’s opinion and nothing more. Not in any way acceptable for a zoological claim made in GD.
Strawman.
I made no such claim. My only claim that could possibly be construed that way is “And can you also explain why not eating an expelled organ that is very likely contaminated with the faecal matter expelled at birth is ‘against mother wit’?”
Now if you want a reference to support the claim that a pacenta is very likely contaminated with the faecal matter expelled at birth I will happily provide that for you.
Now getting back to the debate Spoke, would you care to adress my comments made above?
Can you explain why you believe that if an act like sunbathing or eating saturated fat is unhealthy for humans evolution would have eliminated it from other mammal groups?
And can you explain why, because an act like licking the baby’s anus clean is universal to mammals, it can’t be unhealthy for humans?
Can you provide a reputable reference, you know, one by someone who actually knows about zoology, to support your claim that all mammals eat the placenta? Not something written by a nurse and clearly headed “personal experience”. Something reputable?
And can you provide a reference for your claim that eating the placenta “seems to be an instinct-driven way of conserving proteins and vitamins”?
Hmm, this is interesting.
FOALING…Placenta is not eaten by mare.
CRIATING - Birth in the llama Dam does not lick cria or eat placenta. Epidermal membrane dries and rubs off rapidly.
Pinnipedia and Cetacea are exceptions to mammalian placentophagy, as is the camel.
It appears that Spoke’s claims that all mammals eat the placenta is so much bullplop. Here we have actual vets saying that neither llamas nor mares eat the placenta. It appears that whales, dolphins, camels and seals also do not eat the placenta.
Way to promote ignorance Spoke.
Gosh, you really showed me, Blake! Your handful of exceptions changes everything!
From your cite:
Also from your cite, more evidence of the benefits conferred:
Give a man enough cites and he’ll hang himself, I guess.
So what did you mean by “contaminated”? Sure sounds like you mean to imply that placentophagy is an unhealthy practice. But I’ll give you a chance to clarify: Are you suggesting that placentophagy is unhealthy? Or is it just that you find it subjectively distasteful?