If Mr. Mallard were a member, he’d vote that his true love should be able to read his mind. In his case it’s not passive-aggressive, it’s a genuine belief. Given his family and cultural dynamics and his own ability to read my senitments pretty accurately, it’s a reasonable belief to hold. I, on the other hand, really need things spelled out.
Both men and women can have reasonable expectations AND unreasonable expectations.
It’s certainly true that none of us are clairvoyant, but if you’ve been in a relationship with someone a long time, no matter HOW dense yo uare (and I admit, I can be pretty dense), you should NOTICE certain things and make mental notes.
For example, I’ve learned over the years that my wife and I have VERY different approaches to illness. When I’m sick, all I want is to turn off all the lights, crank the air conditioning, get into bed and be left alone until further notice. My wife needn’t give me any TLC- it’s enough if she checks every few hours to see if I’m still alive, and if I need anything.
She, on the other hand, expects a lot of hand holding and pampering when she’s sick. Has she ever TOLD me that? No- but it DIDN’T take a mind-reader to figure that out. I just had to observe a little. I didn’t give her what she needed the first few times she was sick, I figured out that she was hurt/angry as a result, and I learned from the experience.
So, NOW when she’s sick, I know to be very attentive. I’m still not a mind reader, but as long as you’re not a complete blockhead, you LEARN what your spouse wants and needs. If you NEVER learn, that’s on you. Even the most clueless man should be able to tell when SOMETHING is bothering his wife, even if he doesn’t know quite what, and he ought to make SOME effort to find out, rather than shrugging “Who can understand women?”
You could just list the times and places you like being groped and manhandled. We really are simple minded. And when the blood supply is redirected from the brain we don’t reason all that well either.
I would think that person probably suffered from a degree of obliviousness that bordered on the mentally ill. The reason we can’t rely on someone to 100% say what they mean and never mean more than they say is that people often don’t know what they mean or what they want. Being in a relationship with someone means being their partner as they figure out what they mean/want, and helping them on the journey. I mean, when my husband says “What do you want for dinner tonight?” and I say “I don’t know”, I am not playing games–I don’t know. And when he suggests fish and I make a face and say “anything but that”, I am not playing games, I wasn’t holding back–I didn’t even know I didn’t want fish until he mentioned it. And god knows there have been times when he’s pointed things out to me about my own needs and desires that I haven’t even noticed–and I’m a happier person because of it.
That doesn’t make it ok to play mind games. but it’s also not ok to expect someone to be a perfect communicator, and not support them when they fail to be articulate.
So very, very true. Sexual dynamics are a genuinely unique category of human interaction that it’s pretty much impossible to try and come up with an ironclad set of rules that always works. The best we can do is…our best.
Perhaps we need to have a species-wide “safe word” that is universally understood to really and truly mean *absolutely no, I’m not kidding and I’m not unsure. *I nominate “glockenspiel”
Why not? it’s not like admitting you fntasize about threeways with a dog and a cat.
Well, why would there be an exhaustive list? If you don’t like being groped while engaged in some task, be it dishes or WoW playing, then that’s pretty clear and easy to say. Seems like it’s only necessary to worry about having to come up wiht an exhaustive list if the list is already exhaustive because there’s no particular theme unifying the situations where it’s good or bad.
I don’t think anyone would take it to the extreme of expecting their partner to always have a fixed and crisp idea of what they want and where they are at at all times, merely that when they do, don’t just expect that it will be magically understood by your other and take it personally when it’s not.
Thing is, it isn’t just the saying no. There is the whole saying nothing, and expecting that to mean something. And not just some general thing, but some very specific thing, and “How could you not realize how I felt!”
How come simply speaking english, or your native language, and just asking for what you want doesn’t work? What the hell is so damned unreasonable about that? And if the thing that is twisting your knickers is that you feel you are always the one to initiate things, then say that! Of course, if you want him to initiate things, be ready for him to initiate things he wants.
That is how it works. You want something, you initiate what you want. You want to know what he wants; you wait for him to initiate it. (Assuming for some bizarre reason asking him what he wants somehow ruins the entire thing for you.) If you’re just so damned horny you can’t stand it, but you can’t stand saying “fuck me now!” for some damned reason, ask him what would make him feel like fucking you. Or, if it really is time for no to actually mean no, think how effective it would be if no had always meant no, because you had been using yes to mean yes.
Yes, deeply involved people, with a long history of intimacy generally know a bit about how their partner feels without speaking much about it. But even in that case, why in the world is it necessary to not speak of it? What is the advantage of pretending that he or she has some intimate awareness, if the obvious fact is that they don’t? Telling someone how you feel does have some small advantage over sulking and carrying a grudge.
And, by the way, saying yes when you mean no, or no when you mean yes has a name. It’s called lying. It isn’t being coy, it’s being dishonest. And saying nothing, and expecting that to mean something isn’t subtle, it’s mean.
Tris
Should a partner be able to read my mind? No, that’s silly.
But I would argue that a partner should know me well enough, and be able to draw on past experiences, to have a pretty good guess at what I’m thinking in a given situation. They should also understand my body language well enough to know if there’s a disconnect between what I’m saying verbally and non-verbally (don’t they say verbal communication is only about 20% of communication?).
It’s not necessary, but it’s better (for me at least) than having to spell everything out. My husband and I read each other well after long association, and there are a thousand little ways in which being able to read your partner makes both our lives and our relationship better. As examples, we work great as a team on household tasks because we divide labor effortlessly and without a long discussion or negotiation, gifts are easy because we can always find the thing the other didn’t even know they wanted, I can tell when he’s getting tired because he hasn’t eaten, and he can tell when I’m getting frazzled about work, and we can pick up the slack for one another without having to talk it to death, he helps me not let my family get to me, and I can help him when our friends are getting on his nerves, we can extract ourselves from social events without discussing when to leave, and we rarely have conflicts and misunderstandings about our sex life.
Is it necessary? No, but it’s really awesome to live with someone who knows you almost as well as you know yourself. It makes everything easier, especially in times of heavy stress. It’s also really hard to ever feel neglected and resentful in a relationship where your partner doesn’t even make a trip to the grocery store without knowing your preferences and taking them into account. Obviously, it works both ways, so we both have to be like that, and I never do the “if you don’t know what’s wrong, I’m not going to tell you” because it’s unproductive, but the fact that it does get it almost all the time is invaluable. If anything happened to my husband, I don’t think I’d want to be with someone who had to have everything spelled out for them forever. It’s too nice the other way.
Oh, so you do in fact require some TLC. See, if someone says they don’t require any TLC I assume they don’t want me checking on them and asking if I can bring them anything. Because bringing them things is TLC.
This is exactly the kind of crossed wires that go on when my husband tells me he “can’t read my mind”. My idea of “oh nothing special” is usually a little more involved than his. For example, “I don’t want anything for my birthday” does in fact mean that I want a cake. I just don’t need any fanfare with parties, restaurants, or other gifts to go with it. But of COURSE I want cake.
But what if I extrapolated incorrectly and (even worse) over-conservatively? I might extrapolate myself out of a situation where you want to be manhandled, and that would be a tragedy.
I consider myself pretty intuitive—for a man, anyway. And others who know me would agree. Even so, I’m still dense enough when it comes to checking my amorous urges that I truly require a detailed and exhaustive list of boundaries. When you apply conditional constraints to hormones, you can never be too explicit. I can’t be trusted to deduce.
We obviously have different definitons of TLC.
I can only tell you that, when I’m sick, I’m fine with being left alone in bed for 3-4 hours, whereas if my wife was sick and I left her alone in bed for 3-4 hours, she be extremely hurt and think I’m a heartless S.O.B. who doesn’t care about her welfare. She DOES want a lot of pampering and constant attention.
I didn’t know that when we were first married, and she didn’t tell me explicitly what she needed at the time, so I had a partial excuse for my insufficient attentiveness when we were newlyweds. But after 12 years together, I SHOULD have learned a thing or two! If I were STILL inattentive to her now, it would be absurd for me to say, “Hey, she didn’t TELL me what she wanted, how was I to know?”
It’s fine for a new husband to make mistakes because he doesn’t know what his wife wants. To use a cliche, if a couple has only been married a few months, a husband may be forgiven for saying, “Yes, honey, since you asked me, and I’m sure you want a completely honest answer, that dress DOES make you look fat.” But if she bursts into tears after he gives that answer, he OUGHT to be able to learn from his mistake! If he’s STILL giving callously, offensively “honest” answers like that 5 years later, he’s just a jerk.
It’s forgivable if a new husband doesn’t remember that March 23rd was the day he and his wife met, and doesn’t know that date has special sentimental meaning to his wife. But AFTER she melts down because he didn’t remember that special date and bring her flowers, it’s HIS fault if he makes the same mistake the NEXT March 23rd.
“I didn’t know what she wanted because she didn’t tell me” is a valid excuse ONE time only.
I just want to report that, in defiance of the gender stereotype, the one person in my life who is the most demanding that others be mind-readers is my father. In both his private and his professional life, he expects that others just…magically…know what he wants them to do. When my brother and I were children, we were expected to just know when and how to do our chores, and then he would punish us for not doing them when or how he thought we should do them. He expects his coworkers to just know when they’re putting too much work on his plate. He never articulates his wishes, and he gets irritated when people don’t pick up on them, and his reasoning is that people should be more considerate and thoughtful.
I’ve been telling him for years that he needs to articulate his wishes if he wants them to be met, because we cannot magically know what he wants, but it’s to no avail.
As a woman, I would have no problem with it. Actually, it sounds great. I’m rather literal myself.
Person of the female persuasion here, and I do not expect anyone to know what I don’t tell them. But some people are good at it, and it’s appreciated when it happens.
It took some years to work this out with my husband because I used to try to be subtle and non-nagging. For example, we’d be on a long drive and I’d say something like, “It’s getting to be time for lunch.” And he’d make a non-commital reply. Repeat over the next hour, with variations on the theme, such as “That looks like a decent diner.” Finally I’d have a hunger headache and would snap at him. He’d be all bewildered and say he didn’t know I wanted to stop. I needed to say “I am hungry. Stop for food at the next acceptable location.”
But if somebody asks if I want or do not want something I will answer truthfully unless there’s an incredibly good reason not to. Yes, I do want the candy bar. And I do want the beer. However, it is not good for me to have it now, so please don’t give it to me. I do not give a plugged nickel whether anyone gets me a birthday present. I really don’t.
So, I have a question for those who don’t insist that there be mindreading, but think it is “better” if the Emotionally Significant Other does do what you would like them to do, without any verbal indication from you.
How do you feel when the ESO gives you just exactly what you don’t want right now? Do you think this is evidence that their love is lacking? Are your feelings hurt because of this failure on their part?
I think you cannot reap what you fail to sew. If you make it plain that you think fulfilling your unvoiced expectations is “better” than trying to listen, and fulfill your actual desires, is it also “better” to not get what you want? Is getting what you don’t want a sign of undying love and devotion? Are you willing to own some portion of the “fault” if there must be some? What’s better about it?
Tris
I either tell him, “no thanks” or, if it’s a thing, enjoy it later. Just because I feel good if he offers me tea when I have a cold doesn’t mean my vocal cords don’t work or that I’m helpless to do things myself, or that it’s a mortal insult if he offers me tea when I don’t want any. It makes me feel good when he helps me out (above and beyond household stuff) without asking, but it doesn’t piss me off if I need to ask for help, nor does it bother me if he does something for me that I don’t need. Getting something I do need without having to ask for it (or always even knowing I needed something), however, is excellent.
I’m really unclear on what you mean here. My husband and I communicate well non-verbally, so whatever we have, we’ve sown through long acquaintance and mutual understanding.
I think what makes it better is that the default isn’t to do nothing for your partner unless asked. Even if my husband doesn’t ask for a pack of Sour Patch Kids, I know he loves them and pick them up occasionally if I come across them. So, I bring him some on a day he doesn’t want them? He’ll eat them later and accepts the token. I also send him articles I think he’d like to read or sometimes cook something special even if he doesn’t ask for it. Yes, I miss sometimes. So does he. But even a miss is an acknowledgement of his importance to me and vice versa. Obviously making voiced desires the priority is important, but adding all the unspoken crap is the result of both knowing each other well and caring about each other even as we go about our normal routine. Also, after 13 years ago, there aren’t many misses. We’re good at giving each other what we need unasked and working as a team without discussing it first.
I can see benefits on both sides of this question. Initially I felt that it would be better if we told each other what we wanted and made it clear, but I grew to prefer both of us trying to guess as we knew each other better. I suppose because it’s more interesting. It’s better in the same way that games you might lose are better than ones you can always win. It’s also better because of the way that if my “Emotionally Significant Other” (great term) and I are still enjoying trying to figure each other out so much, it’s a strong bond of love between us.
The fallback position is to say it, rather than to be snippy and “if you don’t know I won’t tell you” which is kind of mean.
That’s an entirely different outlook than I was picturing from the op. You should be very glad you and your husband have the relationship that you do. (And forgive me if I think the reason you don’t have to say things now is because you have mostly said it all before.)
Be happy.
Tris
Ha, this reminds me of the time I was sitting in someone’s back yard and Sr. Olives was coming through the sliding glass door about ten yards away. He raised his hand to the side of his head and gestured to me in a way that made me immediately know he was offering to grab me a drink. I nodded emphatically. We were both feeling very self-satisfied about our awesome intuitive connection until he walked over and started looking around in confusion. ‘‘Hey,’’ he complained, ‘‘I thought you said there was a drink for me out here!’’ :smack:
(To answer your question, we took it as evidence that life is silly and we laughed.)
To address the OP, I mostly think it is manipulative bullshit to not tell someone what you want and then get pissed off that you didn’t get it. I say ‘‘mostly’’ because wires do get crossed from time to time. I can handle misunderstandings, but not intentional misdirections in a relationship.
That said, I get a certain thrill when my husband points out something to me, or brings me something that I never asked for but he knows I would love. Sometimes he does know things about my current state of mind that maybe I didn’t realize until he pointed them out. The times when we are on that intuitive level with one another are really joyful and powerful and I wouldn’t blame anyone for wanting that.
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It’s not better, it’s just more efficient. Do you really think it’s unreasonable to expect a partner of ten, twenty, thirty years to have learned to anticipate a little? I mean, if someone has a disorder that makes them incapable of reading body language, you’d have to learn to work with that, like you would any other disability, but barring that, it doesn’t seem crazy to think that after a decade or two your partner can tell when you come into the house distraught, or that you are going to be a perfectionist about getting the house clean before your mom comes for a visit. Anyone who willfully refuses to note those types of things and demands they be explicitly stated each and every time is being passive aggressive themselves.
If I had a partner who couldn’t anticipate or intuit any of my needs or desires after months or years, I am pretty sure I’d end the relationship. Not to punish them, or because they’ve done anything “wrong”, but because that wouldn’t be the sort of relationship I’d want to have.
I’ve been thinking about the positive things paying attention to non-verbal communication can bring into a relationship, and these are the broad categories I see:
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Seeing things a person doesn’t see about themselves. My husband has taught me things about myself that were really useful. He’s pointed out bad patterns I didn’t notice, or changes I wasn’t aware of. We just had a baby, and I told him pretty explicitly that he needed to monitor me for post partum depression, because I might miss it in myself.
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Making requests in a way that allows people to say “no” gracefully. After all these years, I know when he’s feeling intimate, but I also know he doesn’t want to impose. By not asking explicitly, he gives me more freedom to respond or not. No one has to get rejected.
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Maintaining polite fictions. When I tell my husband to bring me “one or two cookies”, I damn well want two, and he knows it. But the fiction that I’d be happy with one comforts me.
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Promoting intimacy. It pleases me to know my husband as well as I do. I like that I know how he will react to things, and that he knows me in the same way.
These things enhance my relationship, but it’s because we are good at reading each other. Now, if we were bad at it, it would be different: if we were having fights stemming from mis-communication, then it wouldn’t be enhancing our relationship and things would need to change. But that’s not always the case, and there is a role for non-verbal communication for some people.