In this thread Stan Shmenge said:
It seems to me that indeed Democrats have weak leadership in Congress.
[ul]
[li]Do you agree?[/li][li]Do you think Pelosi and Reid should be replaced?[/li][li]Is there any way for them to be replaced? (I mean, can they be convinced to “spend time with their family”? Can some “congressy” maneuver by disgruntled senators and representatives take them out ?)[/li][/ul]
One of my best friends is an anonymous drone lawyer on a House judiciary subcommittee, and we were discussing this very thing over dinner tonight. His personal stance was that Pelosi, as awkward and unpopular she may seem in public, is a great fund raiser for the Democrats, and her Congressional District is the 8th of California; it covers almost all of San Francisco, so she’ll probably never be voted out as long as she decides to run.
Reid on the other hand he describes as “a field mouse”. He has an election coming up in 2010, and while he won’t get “primaried” (he can outspend any Democratic challenger to his Senate seat), poll numbers indicate he will probably be beaten in the General. The way my friend described it, is you don’t just “get rid of” members of party leadership: there is a pecking order.
When Tom Daschle was the Senate Majority Leader, he was beaten in the General by John Thune, a Republican. Someone can describe it better than I can, but the chain of command goes something like Majority Leader, then Majority Whip, then some sort of Chair and then a vice chair. At the time, Daschle was the Majority Leader, and Reid was the Whip. When Daschle was beaten, there was a ceremonial vote among the Democratic Senators (57 of the at the time, iirc), and Reid (because he was “next in line”) was voted in without any opposition.
So from what I understood from my friend, Pelosi is probably here as long as she wants to stay in office, and while Reid could be voted out by his fellow Democratic Senators, it’s unlikely for a handful of reasons, number one being that he may not win reelection in 2010 anyway. But also because the Senate is something of a “boy’s club” and no one wants to rock the boat; it also wouldn’t look good for the party to have political infighting over the Majority Leadership position, especially now with all the fuss over UHC, etc.
To emphasize what’s been said, Pelosi typically gets about 80% of the vote in her district. It’s hard to imagine a circumstance under which she’d be defeated in an election. Whether her fellow representatives want to keep her on as speaker is another question.
I’d love to see Reid and Pelosi (but especially Reid) go and be replaced with someone who is willing to beat some spine into his or her fellow Democrats. I think Reid is probably living on borrowed time but as noted Pelosi isn’t leaving without a gun to her head.
That said, the thought of a return to an O’Neill Congress is not one I welcome. That ship has long since sailed and bon voyage to it, say I.
As a liberal Dem, I’m pretty happy with Pelosi. She’s been effective as a legislative leader.
Harry Reid, OTOH…let’s just say that I agree with what jimmycolorado’s friend said.
I’m not sure it’s ideal for the Dem leader to be from either too solidly blue a district or state, or too marginally blue of one, either: the one would tend to produce legislators too reluctant to compromise, and the other would produce legislators who would be too reluctant to stand for anything. Since the beginning of 2007, it seems like I’ve seen Reid’s backbone turn into overcooked spaghetti on a regular basis, but I can’t think of any instances of Pelosi being intransigent in a way that interfered with anything that would have been desirable from a center-left perspective.
One of Reid’s problems, to be fair, is simply how the Dem caucus operates. Unlike the Republicans, the Dems give out committee chairmanships on a strictly-seniority basis, so the Dem leadership really has no leverage over its more wayward members.
It seems to me that indeed Democrats have weak leadership in Congress.
[ul]
[li]Do you agree?[/li][/ul]Yes
[ul]
[li]Do you think Pelosi and Reid should be replaced?[/li][/ul]Hell Yes
[ul]
[li]Is there any way for them to be replaced? (I mean, can they be convinced to “spend time with their family”? Can some “congressy” maneuver by disgruntled senators and representatives take them out ?)[/li][/ul]
** No**
Mistaken assumption. It presumes that the liberal wing has triumphed over the “centrist” Clintonista wing, which may well yet happen, but hasn’t happened yet. During the Clinton years, and the Years of Darkness, the Republican Lite leadership gained a stranglehold on the leadership directed funds for candidates, ensuring a policy debate between Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber.
For a while, it seemed impossible for there to be any resurrection of the genuine Left in American politics. And then came Bush…
You’ve got Tip O’Neill wrong. His big strength was not that he could maintain a partisan lock on his party - his strength was that he knew how to compromise - what to give up to gain Republican support he needed, THEN to pull his more partisan members into line and get the Democrats to vote anyway.
Ted Kennedy also had this ability. While he was very liberal, he also knew when to give things up, when to cut deals, and then his stature gave him the ability to get his fellow Democrats to go along with him.
The weakness of Pelosi in particular is that she has no talent whatsoever for reaching across the aisle. She alienates Republicans in the House, she refuses to compromise with them, treats them with disdain, etc. I’m sure the liberal partisans on this board love this, but the result is more bitter partisanship and a lot of bills that go nowhere.
When I think of Tip O’Neill, I think of his ability to maintain a warm friendship with Ronald Reagan, while still opposing just about everything Reagan stood for, and the two even taking political shots at each other. But that friendship allowed the two of them to work together when they had to, and he got as many concessions from Reagan as Reagan got from him.
I see. So, you are suggesting that Ms Pelosi has much to learn from the Republicans about the value of compromise and bi-partisanship? Duly noted.
Where the hell did I say THAT? You do know that Tip O’Neill was a Democrat, right?
Ah! I stand corrected and admonished. So, you are saying that both sides have much to learn from Tip O’Neill? Concur, with the proviso that there appears to be considerably more shrieking hysteria from the right. Assuming that foam-flecked, bald faced lies are any indication, and I submit that they are reliable. Even definitive.
Could you give a particular for-instance of a bill that Dems should favor and that is supported by at least some House Republicans, but that has gone nowhere due to Pelosi’s intransigence?
If Reid were to go, Dick Durbin would be next in line. He’s actually shown some balls in the past. He was one of the few to call Bullshit on the Iraq WMD lies, and he voted against the Iraq war Resolution. He also called Bush out for the torture and abuses at Gitmo before it was popular to do so. I can’t help but think he’d be an upgrade over Reid.
Accusing Pelosi of being the one not willing to reach across the aisle is hilarious. She drives liberals crazy with her never ending penchant to roll over and have her belly scratched by Republicans. The charge is made even more laughable by the declared intentions of elected Republicans to oppose health care reform at all costs simply to avoid giving Obama a political victory. Elected Republcans right now are afraid to give any appearance whatever of cooperating with Obama. Their insane constituents go beserk if they nod hello to the guy when he passes them in the chamber.
What I think is interesting, is that the Democrats created a special chair just below the Whip position called Caucus Vice Chairman (I mentioned this in my first response, but couldn’t remember all the details). It seems they made it specifically for Senator Chuck Schumer due to his work for the DSCC. He’s an incredibly shrewed and capable politician, and just as a layman, I can tell you a guy like Schumer wouldn’t be happy with the #3 or even the #2 spot in the Senate for his party. As my friend likes to say, “you give these guys $100, they want $200. You give them three scoops of ice cream, they want four.”
So if Reid loses his election in 2010, it could potentially set up a fascinating fight for the Leadership position between Durbin (who, by the rules the Dems have set up for themselves, would be the “next in line”) and Schumer (who has helped the party immensely through his efforts on the DSCC).
Since bills seem to move through the House fairly well, perhaps Pelosi’s supposed refusal to reach across the aisle is working. Actually, given that not even one House Rep could find it in his or her heart to vote for the stimulus bill perhaps Sam is criticizing the wrong side. Exactly what kind of compromise would have satisfied them, besides gutting it?
Tip lived in a different era, where there were moderate Republicans still in the House.
On the other hand I wouldn’t mind if Reid left, but the Senate is a different place in any case.
Yes. And in the spirit of reducing the national debt I’d like to champion the idea of a pay-per-view celebrity death match. Winner gets a gold retirement watch.
As much as the Dems have been accused of being gutless,{and at times they deserved it} that’s how I feel now about the GOP members who cater to the fringe for fear of losing their votes. When they are forced to apologize to Rush I have to seriously question any leadership qualities. I have respect for McCain who defended Obama at a town hall and the other GOP congressman who told the folks at his town hall to turn off Glenn Beck even though he was met with boos.
The woman who was recently caught whispering “I agree with you” to one birther even though publicly she claims Obama is a citizen , not so much respect for that.
Well, I’m happier with Pelosi than I used to be, I’m still pissed at Reid and somebody needs to take Baucus and Conrad to the woodshed. They’re caving to “Lying Joe” Wilson.