Is it time to leave yet?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
101

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Being a citizen of the US and loving it does not, by default, make any of us a supporter of anything the US Government says or does. I hope the rest of the world understands that.

I agree with what others are saying. This is my home and it is worth fighting for. Skipping-out when the going gets rough to make one’s self feel better is equivalent to the conservative meme “I got mine.” Unless you are at risk of physical harm or your basic human rights are at risk, then I say stay and fight.

102

Immigrating would not be a problem – just hang out your shingle or alternately sign on with a firm doing trans-boundary work.

As far as cold goes, it depend on where you go (and note that for every hot and humid summer you escape, you get to have more fun and adventure cuddling in the winter).

Chicago v. Vancouver: pretty much the same temp but Vancouver has powder skiing (Grouse and Cypress), a world class city, and one of the world’s premiere ski resorts (Whistler Blackcomb) about an hour and a half up the gorgeous sea to sky highway.

Chicago v. Kelowna: only slight cooler (0.9 degree daily mean difference) than Chicago but Kelowna it is very dry (top end of the Okanagan Desert) so the cold does not feel anywhere near as cold, and it has champagne dry powder skiing (Silverstar, Big White, Apex) and lots of vinyards.

And from Kelowna, if you don’t mind driving 3.5 or 4.5 hours into the middle of nowhere for a few days of fun, there’s blower powder / snorkel skiing to be had at Revelstoke and Kicking Horse at the top of the powder highway, but yes, it’s a fair bit cooler (1.4 degree daily mean difference) than Chicago and lacks the amenities of a big city (i.e. The Chicago Bears v. bears).

103

I moved from the U.S. to Thailand several years ago for reasons unrelated to politics. One of my biggest regrets at the time was quality of governance — I felt like I was moving from a competent good-spirited democracy to a place where corruption and incompetence were rampant.

I don’t feel that way anymore! Thailand, with all its problems, has been moving in a good direction. While I’ve been living here, minimum wages rose significantly, a primitive UHC was instituted, and the government has invested heavily in infrastructure for poor rural areas. The U.S. OTOH has recently become an utter laughingstock. Its GINI now shows more inequality than Thailand, and its ever-greedy rich even seek to deny the American masses their UHC.

What are you talking about? I thing you’re wrong and would be happy to show you why, but i’m honestly at a loss to imagine what you’re talking about.

104

Me neither. As for “second amendment solutions”, the whack jobs don’t seem to understand that a lot of folks on the left also own guns. Like me.

105

If it gets to the point where that matters, I’ll wish I’d left.

106

I’m currently talking to a company in Canada, and it’s looking positive. They’re going to be flying me out for an interview in a couple of weeks.

My wife is really looking forward to it. Me, I love my house and don’t really want to move… but if the midterms don’t have a serious course correction and I get the job offer, I’m outta here.

107

we’re hardly alone. Sorry, but the post-WWII generation is fucking things up pretty much across the globe. Trump, Brexit, Orban, Wilders, Petry, Duterte, Putin, Le Pen, are all those pathetic, aging fossils who never got their WWIII to be the next “greatest generation.” Nationalism and populism are rampant everywhere, just witness Brazil electing Bolsonaro.

the world sucks because old people are the only reliable voting block, and old people suck. Old people convince themselves that they were absolute perfect angels when they were young, and that everything was perfect when they were young. so they will vote for any demagogue who agrees that everything was perfect back then and who promises to protect them from everything they’re scared of, including their own shadows.

we are the only species on the planet that expends a ton of effort keeping our aged population alive. and I wonder why.

108

Sadly whites age 30-44 aren’t much better than whites age 65+ when it came to Trump support.

The younger whites supported Trump by a 17 point margin, the elderly whites supported him by 19.

However the most pro trump group by age and race are the boomers who preferred Trump by 28 points. Younger whites only preferred Trump by 4 points.

I don’t know whats giving rise to this rise of neofascism or what the solution is. I remember years ago someone on this board said that democracy was good for the Islamist parties in the middle east because the public could vote for them, see them be incompetent, then vote them out.

Maybe thats the best course of action. Let the public vote for fascists, let the fascists fuck up then vote them out and hopefully some of us learn our lesson. But the problem with that is the fact that the fascists declare war on democracy once in power.

Anyway, it all sucks. And I don’t know if leaving will make it better. Who is to say Canada won’t be next on the list of nations going far right.

109

Muffin, please don’t encourage the Yanks to come to Vancouver or BC, Vancouver’s overcrowded as it is, and in the rest of BC we’re trying to preserve as much of the nature as possible. Plus I doubt many of these people are willing to live in an apartment or take public transit. What room there is should go in priority to (1) our own retirees, (2) refugees, especially from countries like Iraq and Syria, you know the ones destroyed by the Americans, (3) immigrants that are unwelcome in the States, e.g. Latin Americans, Chinese, Russians.

Plus, we’ve worked hard to create a very diverse and tolerant society in Vancouver. There are so many mixed-ethnicity couples and families here, so many languages spoken, the Americans’ heads will explode if they get long-term exposure to them.

They should really stay where they are and change their country into a respectable member of the world.

110

You make a good case, Muffin. :wink: Gotta say, the trump card (no pun intended) for me is likely having my only granddaughter (age 3) living 10 minutes away, and an international airport (O’Hare) 20 minutes away, which makes visits w/ my other 2 kids in Denver and LA easier. But who knows - if our ski trip this spring is everything I hope…

We REALLY like the Pacific NW, for reasons both environmental and sociological. From what we hear (never been) Vancouver is similar in many respects.

111

My bolding, Your word.

Running off (to wherever you think it is you would be able to go) and leaving behind people you know to be targets is…not courageous. Sticking around while the political climate suits you, and then buggering off when it gets a little stormy makes you a fair weather patriot. This kind of talk makes you look like a parasite who enjoys the fruits of what others worked hard to achieve, but isn’t willing to step up when the fruits of their efforts fade.

So yeah, sounds like it IS time for you to leave because your kind is certainly not needed here.

112

Do shut up, please. All this “I’m leaving this country run by neofascists”
The US is the country where everyone wants to be. People poor, desperate, from actual countries run by actual evil people walk 2000 km to get to the racist, immigrant-hating country run by Putin through Trump. There is no better country in the world for almost anything (your healthcare could use some improvement).
So, stop whining like little babies and your “I’m gonna leave”
You said you were gonna leave with GWB and with any other republican president and you stayed.

113

I’m not going anywhere – too old and entrenched – but I wouldn’t be surprised if my son (currently 19) decides to take his in-demand skills somewhere else when he finishes college.

If the country where you happen to live disgusts you with its policies and actions – and you don’t believe that a positive change is likely – why contribute your hard work to its economy and taxes to its coffers? Why not contribute those to a country that better reflects your values?

I’ll always shop at Michael’s over Hobby Lobby. Same idea, bigger scale.

114

Yeah you hear that a lot - “If you don’t like it, leave.” In other words “Everyone who disagrees with me should feel free to emigrate.” Yeah you wish!

115

I believe this country should be based on democracy, equality, and the rule of law. If people want something different, there are plenty of other countries out there that will provide it for them. And, yes, I wish those people would leave. I love this country and I don’t want to see it remade into what they’re looking for.

116

Ha! You talk like there is actually a viable path TO real change if you stay, and vote like a good citizen for somebody with the “D” behind their name. Maybe you’ve missed the fact that oligarchs and kleptocrats own and run our country now? There is no real choice there.

When you go to vote for any national-level politician at the Senate / President / Congress level, your choices are literally:

Candidate 1. Somebody who is a multi-millionaire and needs to raise tens of thousand of dollars every few days, and whose policies are going to favor big corporations and the 1% while hurting the middle class, and is pro-huge military, pro spying on all US citizens, and pro “tough on crime”.
vs
Candidate 2. Somebody who is a multi-millionaire and and needs to raise tens of thousand of dollars every few days, and whose policies are going to favor big corporations and the 1% while hurting the middle class, and is pro-huge military, pro spying on all US citizens, and pro “tough on crime”.

Tell me then, which one of those candidates is going to get elected and then vote for the increasingly-needed, radical, multiple-industry-disrupting changes this country needs to actually get better? Things like UHC (pharma, healthcare, and doctor donations go away), real education reform (union donations go away), real patent and copyright reform (hollywood and tech donations go away), real financial regulations and reform, with teeth (hedge fund, big 4, and all other financial institution donations go away)? Not to mention, that not only do the donations go away (to other, friendlier candidates), but those friendlier candidates suddenly get hundreds of millions of paid-for advertising in all channels. The only ones who ever win are already wholly owned and won’t vote for the degree of change needed.

As to leaving itself, and for the other possible interested folk posting or reading this thread, it’s a matter I’ve given a good deal of thought to, as well.

Are you young and in a highly-skilled industry with lots of demand?
Congrats, you can go to one of the marquee countries like Canada, France, or Sweden. Although it varies, the basic process is getting a firm job offer from a company there, and then working for several years and achieving permanent residency before applying and getting citizenship. I said those three because I have friends who have gone to those and it was relatively easy compared to some other EU countries, but I’m sure there’s more where this works.

Do you have liquidatable assets in the $2M+ USD range?
A variety of countries offer citizenships for investment, with investment variously defined by property purchases, business investments, financial investments, or some combination of the three. EU ones are the most expensive and generally the most time-consuming in terms of bake-in period, but them’s the breaks. You can get tiny little island citizenships pretty cheap, though! Antigua, Grenada, or St. Kitts will only set you back $250k!

** Do neither of these apply?**
Southeast Asia or Asia is probably right for you, although Belize, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and a few others might be a good fit, too. You can live pretty much indefinitely in SE Asia without much difficulty (not as sure on the others, as I have no experience), although getting citizenship itself can vary in difficulty depending on the country. If you have passive income, you can live really well on just a few thousand USD a month. Plenty of expats live on Social Security alone over there. If you still need to work to have enough income and have a college degree, you can get by teaching ESL, running an online business, playing poker, or whatever other portable skills you can bring to bear. And the best part is you’ll be living in a tropical paradise with gorgeous beaches, sunny climates, no snow, and amazing wildlife!

There’s also marrying a citizen and trying to get in that way for some of these, but that’s not actually universally possible in lots of countries, and is of less individual utility to a lot of folk, so I’ve left those off.

But, choose accordingly! All of them are pretty good options, honestly, and where there’s a will there’s a way. When I was an expat, I literally just flew to an asian country with a single suitcase and otherwise no real plans, and figured it out from there, and you can do the same if you’re motivated enough.

117

This is more than an abstract question for me. I don’t want to leave. I have my whole life here. But at the same time, I can’t help but think about how the Jews could have just walked out of Germany in 1933.

I feel like my family is in that situation. I have good reason to be fearful. At what point does running become the best option? And where would we be welcome?

I don’t want to give up. I want to fight for my country. But I can’t overlook threats to my loved ones either. I’ve looked at how long a person can stay in places without actually moving there. My wife could get on a plane and move countries every six months until Trump is dead or defeated. Some kind of life, huh? My in-laws are trying to get citizenship in another countries.

118

Mr. Mace never got back to us. Does anybody have the slightest clue what he’s taking about? That America’s youth rose up and stopped a major war? Is that what was so “bad”?

119

Pretty sure I didn’t say anything about voting our way into a better place, or that I thought there was any path to real improvement without enduring some very dark and disruptive times. You assume too much.

120

Fair enough, I stand corrected. At least you’re realistic, then. But you surely can’t expect everyone to stand and stay through very dark and disruptive times, and for those who know they can’t cut it, we’re likely all better off if they DO find somewhere they can emigrate and live peaceably while still advocating and supporting change here.

Honestly, I wish there was such a thing as immigrant exchange programs between countries. Lots of people want to come to the US, far more than there are open slots for - so why not have a swap program where a person in the same age / education / job industry band can swap out with a similar person in another country? Want to move to Germany and become a German citizen? As long as there’s a German in the same age / education / job industry as you who wants to come here, no problem!

Of coures, even if such a thing existed I’m sure good ol’ American Exceptionalism would raise it’s head and we’d refuse to participate in such programs.