I think you’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a teenager. Evaluation of risks just doesn’t happen.
You guys really think it’s appropriate for a high school sophomore to openly have sex in her parent’s house with a casual partner while her parents are there? Even as a full-grown adult, I wouldn’t be comfortable doing that! You’re mom’s house is not your bachelor pad.
You’ve never experienced “Man, Bob never hangs out any more. Ever since he got a girlfriend he’s disappeared off the face of the earth.”? Really? You’ve never heard someone say “Ever since I got married, I’ve stopped seeing my single friends much.”? It’s a common story. Adults usually manage to balance it out over times as the relationship becomes a mature thing, you guys make “couple” friends and begin to meld interests, etc. But young relationships don’t usually reach that point- it’s usually all infatuation.
At 15, kids in the US are expected to be participating in sports, starting to think about jobs, working internships, developing the friendships that will continue with them for the rest of their lives, thinking about travel after they graduate, dreaming big about their future…it’s a critical time with a lot going on, and you can’t get it all done if you are focusing the bulk of your energy on a single person.
This isn’t to say you cannot date at that age. It is the time to begin exploring that. But it’s okay, at that age, for a relationship to progress slowly, take a secondary position to school, and not to become the primary form of social interaction the way it might be when you are older. It’s a practice relationship, not the love of your life.
Of course, a parent can’t stop you from becoming lovesick. But they can ensure that you maintain some balance in your life, so that you can recover from shocks. They can take measures to encourage a fun, casual, exploratory relationship rather than treating the SO like one of the family. While they cannot prevent it from being sexual, they can make sure that the sex does not become something routine or become the sole focus of the relationship. And part of that means stating that your house will not become a place to take your girlfriend back to get laid in. Of course the kid will, to some degree, do what she wants. But the basic ground rules a parent throws down can provide a space to keep grounded, and over time I think kids absorb and come to respect some of these values.
No, I don’t.
But then again I wouldn’t have been discussing my sex life with my dad at 15, either.
Not really, but I don’t believe in making it impossible for it to happen either. There is a middle ground between mum and dad setting out the lube and toys and keeping them on chastity chains. Nominally, the system where the parents provide some structured activity to the dates or visits, but also allow them a few hours of private time to do with as they please. That is how exploration happens. You don’t have to let them bunk together but creating some private time for them to be together, alone shows respect for your child, the SO, the relationship, etc… Be honest with them. They don’t HAVE the option of their own apartment and may not have that available to them for years. Forcing them to live in artificial abstinence is just cruel, stupid, and counter-productive.
Exactly. If you are unable to figure out a way to explore your sexuality without being discreet enough that your it’s not right in your parents’ faces, you probably are not approaching it with the right degree of maturity. The mature thing to do is to figure out a private time and place, not to be jumping on each without regard to context.
“Sneaking around” in order to have sex isn’t the worst thing in the world. It shows some ability to understand what is appropriate, to plan, to wait things out a bit, to act independently and to keep some limits. When you are ready to have a sex life, you are going to be able to “own” that sex life, and that means being able to make sure it’s not public to all and sundry. Trying to bang in your parent’s house after you’ve explicitly been told not to- and managing to get caught- does not show any of this- it shows poor planning, a lack of independence, poor risk assessment, etc. If you are getting caught having sex, you probably just aren’t ready for it.
I think it’s difficult to keep it a secret when you’ve ‘come out’ and gone to therapy.
As to the rest of your post even sven, I agree; but it I think the family dynamics have to be taken into account as well. This seems to be a family where everything is under discussion until a logical and equitable solution is found.
Or, the teenager under scrutiny pays the lip service to get everyone off her back, and then does what she wants to do.
At 15?! At 15, I barely got “alone time” with my platonic friends! 15 is a big difference from 16 or 17.
At that age, remember, your parents still need to drive you to dates. I remember being able to watch a movie with a guy, if my mom drove us there, bought the tickets, and picked us up when it was over. She was just starting to let male friends go with the family to the mall or on some other friendly family activities. I think I was also allowed on group dates, where a group of us would meet our boyfriends in the evening at a coffee shop- with mommy dearest driving me there and picking me up. This was all considered very daring and exciting.
I was just getting to the age where i was allowed to go downtown with a group of friends for a few hours on weekends, but of course I’d have to call and check in every couple hours. My biggest freedom at that age was being able to walk home from school at my own pace, as long as I was home before dark. That was more than enough time to get into a little trouble and explore the things that teens explore.
And my mom was pretty liberal and gave me more freedom than most of my friends!
Respect is something that is earned by building trust, and the daughter here has not yet done this. There is no call to “respect” a “relationship” with someone she barely knows. Do you expect your parents to “respect” your booty calls? She has yet to demonstrate the maturity that would lead to her having a bit more freedom and privacy.
She does not yet have her own apartment sex-pad because she isn’t even old enough to work an after school job at Pizza Hut, much less manage an adult sex life.
If she wants to have sex, she will and that’s her business, but her parents certainly do not have to “respect” it, make it easy for her, or give her space for it. If she needs time and space to have sex, she should be mature enough to figure that stuff out on her own.
There is too much to parse into bits here so I’m just going to separate out my responses with a paragraph break.
First off, your experience does not equate to everyone else. Just because you didn’t get to do something doesn’t mean that other people shouldn’t be allowed. That is a terrible argument for anything. There is a tendency to remember the past with rose-tinted glasses; and I, like you, can remember the making out in the movies, and stolen moments between young paramours. However, I also remember the utter frustration at being foiled at every opportunity for exploration by an interventionist parent. I was ready at that age for sex. Instead of a frank exchange between a parent to advise me on being careful, not equating love with sex, and being open for me to ask questions, I was forced to figure it all out alone, lie and manipulate my parents to merely get a little space. Think back a bit, you did it too I’ll bet. I don’t think that is a healthy way for us to raise our children.
I disagree that there is any real significant difference between 15 and 16. There is no magic switch for this type of thing and you know it. A person slowly progresses into a fully sexual being starting somewhere around 12 or so with masturbatory exploration. Eventually we become fully engaged adults who manage their own families. At 15, many young people are experimenting in all levels of sexual interaction. Some are ready to go all the way, others content themselves to masturbation. Most are somewhere in between for any number of reasons. The only person who can decide readiness is the person in consideration.
I also disagree that she hasn’t earned any respect. You have a fairly strong young woman here who managed to have the gumption to be out, and ask for an impartial third opinion- therapy, when she felt she was not making any headway with her parents. Those are not the signs of an immature idiot or spoilt baby who only wants her way.
Your next point is self-evident. Sex does not require a job, a private home, and independent finances, It is the natural right of every human who can consent to engage or abstain as they see fit. Minors in the US have no choice but to live in their parent’s home until the law allows them to live on their own. The law is not in line with biology, and thus it is fair and ethical for parents to make reasonable accommodations to the fact that they have young adult in their care, not a baby.
Your last point is just sad. You do realize that your definition of maturity is one where she is able to lie, sneak, and manipulate the people she should trust the most just to accommodate her selfish goal of sex.
Just so we’re clear, sex (i.e. something genital-related) was definitely going to be happening here, right? Not just a late night chat and cuddle with some kissing?
Given that, and the OP’s question, I’d say while it’s not wrong for a 15 yo to be sexually active, it is wrong for it to be done as a rule-breaking exercise. But it would still be wrong even if they weren’t going to be having sex, just chatting, and also the OP needs to get to grips with the reasons for his objections to it ASAP.
And second - did these two girls get any time to be *alone together *for that above-the-waistline kiss and cuddle, before bedtime? Because if not, while as a parent I can sort of grudgingly accept the “my house, my rules” law, really my sympathies would be with your daughter if there wasn’t at least some make-out time during the visit.
Um… speak for yourself. Apparently you were super sheltered. When I was 16 I traveled internationally for the first time, to go on a guided hike in the Yorkshire Dales. I went to London, by myself, where I found public transportation to Oxford, where I stayed with some family friends. Then (again on my own) I found a train for York, and met up with my hiking group at the designated spot. This was before cell phones and the Internet. My parents didn’t hear from me for 14 days. My parents often went on business trips, leaving me alone in the house for a couple days at a time with $20 and a note that said “see you tuesday.”
Most of my friends in high school were boys, I was allowed platonic sleepovers as a matter of course at 15. My parents made me learn public transit on my own at 12 (as in, “this is an important life skill, time to learn it, we aren’t taking you everywhere anymore.”). I was ULTRA responsible and not sexually active, by the way.
There is no magic number, but there is a logical progression of increased freedom that comes with increased responsibility. In the US, there are actually some pretty solid numbers guiding this. 16 is when we are allowed to drive and to work a part-time job (with some very tight restriction on that.) 18 is when we are allowed to sign ourselves out of school, rent hotel rooms, and live on our own.
Sexually active women, for example, need to be having regular pelvic exams. That means you should be mature enough to recognize that need and able to take responsibility for it. A 17 year old is going to be able to make the appointment on her initiative, drive herself there, and pay for it. A 15 year old probably will not be able to do these things.
A sexually active person should be able to recognize that the bump on their genital might be a wart, make a doctor’s appoint, get to and pay for that appointment, and take any follow up medication needed completely, and have the emotional maturity to go through all of this relatively calmly. A less mature person, who is not capable of these things, might end up in denial or procrastinate until their genitals look like one of the scare pictures they show you in sex ed class.
Let’s look at how kids earn their freedom of movement. It comes in incremental steps- usually something like:
[ol]
[li]You can only go out with a trusted adult (maybe around 12)[/li][li]You can go out in groups of trusted friends, with a clear purpose, and frequent check ins[/li][li]You can go out with a wider number of people, with vaguer plans, and check in when you arrive and when you are about to leave[/li][li]You can go out with friends without a lot of questions asked for short periods[/li][li]You can be out doing whatever until curfew[/li][li]You can come and go as you please, without explaination (around 18)[/li][/ol]
During this time, a child exhibits responsibility by, for example, not using this time to get obviously wasted, get in trouble with the police, or otherwise demonstrate that they cannot handle the responsibilities that come with increased freedom. If they do so, the progression will probably be slowed or delayed until they have built up some trust.
Likewise, most kids do not go directly from “platonic friends” to “long-term lovers having routine sex on a regular basis in a home setting.” While the exact timing may vary, a progression might look something like:
[ol]
[li]Has platonic friends (around 12)[/li][li]Bring a love interest to casual family events, such as going with the family to the state fair or on a picnic[/li][li]Spends time together at home in public places such as the living room, with parents pesent[/li][li]Goes on short, public dates, such as to a school dance.[/li][li]Goes on less supervised date in a group of friends, with the parent dropping off and picking up the kid[/li][li]Spends together time at home, with the bedroom door open[/li][li]Goes on short date activities alone, with the parent dropping off and picking up[/li][li]Goes on short dates outside of the house independently. [/li][li]Goes out on longer dates until curfew[/li][li]Spends the night together on rare occasions, such as after prom[/li][li]Spends the night together routinely [/li][li]Allowed to date and be sexually active as they please, within the bounds acceptable by their society (around 18)[/li][/ol]
With each of these steps comes a chance to show the maturity to handle increased responsibility. For example, one way to show responsibility at the “in room with open door” phase is to not get caught trying to bonk while doing this, as the OP’s daughter did.
Yes, sex is a strong and important drive. But even adults end up in situations where being sexual is not appropriate. People can and do wait if they do not have an appropriate partner, appropriate venue, etc. Part of the growing up process is figuring out how to channel this strong and fundamental drive in safe, balanced, fun ways.
I can’t say for sure whether sex was absolutely going to happen, but my daughter has acknowledged that it was definitely on the table. They did have plenty of alone time together before the incident (not much afterward, because this happened on the last night of the visit and the girlfriend left for the airport first thing the next morning). They were allowed to spend time together in the basement and in my daughter’s bedroom, though the bedroom door and the door to the basement stairs had to stay open (another pre-condition for the visit).
They also spent time together outside where they were alone.
I’m beginning to think that my objections boil down to “I see no evidence that you’re ready to make that kind of decision.” Which I know she won’t want to hear. I don’t like saying it, either, but it’s true. I just don’t trust her at this point in time to make that kind of decision without first considering the risks.
That, however, brings me full circle in asking “what are the risks”? I know what the physical risks are. I believe there are emotional risks as well, but it’s tough explaining that to a 15-year old in a way that she can understand.
Allright, So your job at this point is to decide what criteria will actually convince you, and stick to it. You can’t just move the goalposts each time.
OK. I think I can help you out here.
We’re going to go through the basic course of “people are not mind-readers.”
Your daughter, sometime between the last time you discussed sex and when you found her in your basement ready to get the freak on (or perhaps for some non-coital exploratory snuggling) has discovered that sex is not icky, and is in fact quite exciting.
You as parents, did not know about this (not mind readers) and are not too thrilled about this development. However, you state repeatedly, and I’ll believe you, that you want to have a dialogue and let your daughter convince you that she’s ready for this.
You seem to think that your daughter should spontaneously come up with these ideas herself. She won’t. She can’t. Her girlfriend is amazing, sex-like activities feel so good, and she’s impulsive and probably busy with other teen life activities as well - there’s no need. She’s especially unlikely to volunteer the time and effort because I bet if you got some undercover agent to ask her, she believes there is NO WAY IN HELL that you will ever support or accept her having sex (she’s not a mind-reader). You’re her parents. Parent’s supporting sexual adventures doesn’t compute to a teen.
What you need to do is sit down with your wife and decide some physical tasks that your daughter has to complete in order to show you that she knows what she’s getting into (you aren’t mind readers, so she has to DO SOMETHING to prove her maturity). Then, sit down with your daughter, and explain clearly that this is her chance to prove herself a responsible mature adult, and that if she does so, you’re on-board to make her relationship with her girlfriend develop (she’s not a mind reader, so this lets her know she has a chance to get everything she wants without being sneaky about it).
So, here are some examples of assigned tasks:
Daughter must find at least 5 OBGYNs in your health insurance coverage network, research them (with written evidence of said research) and determine one which she thinks is the best fit for her. She must then schedule an appointment for an exam and discussion of beginning sexual activity, attend that appointment with no parental assistance (using allowance for taxi fare or taking public transport, or arranging a lift from a friend with a car) and bring back the proof that she actually attended the appointment (the receipt of payment with the medical bill) and discuss (with whichever parent she feels most comfortable with) what she learned at that appointment. This can be done even if she already has an OBGYN - that one is probably one she shares with mom or female relatives. This assignment gives her a personal doctor that she doesn’t share with parents, and that she selected herself.
Daughter must research the most common STDs experienced by lesbians, with citations and a paper of at least 2 pages double-spaced outlining each disease by rank, as well as specific steps that she plans to take in order to circumvent those diseases. The steps must include specific action steps (I will have a “sex box” beside my bed and check weekly to see that it is stocked with female condoms, cleansers… I will schedule reminders into my calendar app for yearly STD checkups to make sure that I am still clean.) Things like that. They have to be specific or they don’t count.
Daughter must get a sexual history from girlfriend, and fact-check it to her best ability with girlfriend’s family, mutual friends, or ex-girlfriends (or boyfriends) to assure herself of girlfriend’s sexual and disease state. A summary of that history is presented to parents along with a step-by-step plan of what actions are felt to be necessary to keep her emotional and physical self protected from girlfriend’s history. (this one is the most difficult - but if she can’t have a conversation and do fact-checking about the subject, ask her why she feels like she can engage in the activity? Remind her of the effort expended on her favorite whatever, and how she makes sure that is genuine and worthwhile to her - does she really think that sex and sexual partners are less important?)
Each of these options gives your daughter the chance to prove that she can make adult decisions and look into things (even if she thinks that they don’t concern her) in a rational manner. If she’s willing to put in the work and present her best evidence that she can be mature and safe about sex, then let her have at it!
I was really hoping that someone would provide the answer to this question by now. We all agree that some teenagers can’t deal with the emotional side of sex, but what exactly does that mean?
The most common problem for teenagers is becoming too attached to each other. When people want to get married to the first person they have sex with in high school, that can be a problem. This is less of a problem for lesbians, but there is still a chance that other problems could result from your daughter becoming too emotionally attached to her girlfriend, i.e., running away together, moving in together, and maybe going to a shitty college because her girlfriend wants to go there.
Then there is letting go of the first person you have sex with. Your daughter might become unstable from losing her first lover and start stalking her and abusing her future girlfriends. The reverse situation might happen and your daughter might have to deal with her stalker ex-girlfriend - a pretty shitty situation for a grown adult much less a 15-year-old child.
Weird and unusual sexual preferences might also be a problem. If your daughter’s girlfriend has some dangerous sexual fetishes, she might try and get your daughter to participate. As a teenager with no sexual experience, this has the potential to become very traumatizing. It’s a bit farfetched, but dangerous sexual preferences aren’t exactly advertised, so it is a risk.
That’s all I can think of. Everything here might not apply because of what you know about your daughter and her girlfriend, but they are things parents should be concerned about when it comes to sex.
These risks are still pretty hard to explain to a teenager. Teenagers think they have perfect control over their emotions and think they know everything about the people they date. They usually need a few bad experiences before they understand how sex can complicate things.
Am I moving the goalposts? I don’t see it that way and it’s certainly not my intention.
In summary, here’s what we’ve said to her so far about why we set the “no sex” rule: there are physical, mental, and emotional consequences that we don’t think you understand right now.
Our communication with her has been very consistent on that point. And I still believe that’s the case, though I’m willing to listen to arguments otherwise.
She understandably wants to know what those risks are. I’m clear on the physical risks, but am struggling to articulate what the mental and emotional ones are. I believe they’re real, and that they’re present in this case, but it is difficult for me to describe them. One of the most helpful things I’ve heard so far is that it creates a firm emotional attachment to someone that she really doesn’t know all that well, may not be able to trust, and may be in her life for only a short period of time. I think that’s true, but was having trouble putting it into words.
Lasciel, thanks for that advice. It is very helpful. To this point, I think my wife and I have been too quick to fall back on the reasoning (between ourselves) that our daughter’s breaking her agreement is a sure sign that she’s not mature enough to make informed judgments about sex. It was poor judgment on her part, but it’s too tied up in her ability to understand the rule for it to serve as that kind of barometer. Your suggestions provide some opportunities for her to demonstrate a more objective display of responsibility.
I’ll go over your list of suggestions with my wife. Thanks again.
Thanks, Lakai. That really is the core of the issue my family is facing. The examples you list are good ones. We’ve touched on some of them and I will discuss the others with her as well.
shrug
Normal people have sex in their bedroom. I too admit to being a bit uncomfortable having sex in my parent’s house. But that’s because it’s their house. For the daughter, it’s her house as well, and her bedroom. Where else is she supposed to have sex?
I’ll admit to being a little bit thrown by them being lesbians. The definition of sex there is a bit fuzzier than heterosexual relationships. But I don’t see a problem with a 15 year old doing heavy petting in her house.
And why do we want to teach daughter to be ridiculously creepy?