Nice mixed metaphor. In the rocket science world, we often say, “Well, it isn’t brain surgery,” about some challenge. I often wonder if neurosurgeons say to each other, “Well, it isn’t rocket science.”
Personally, I find this far more difficult than actual rocket science. I’d even rather do brain surgery, despite having zero training in either neuroscience or medicine. :eek:
Is there a school for this sort of thing? 'Cause I’m sure not picking it up out of books or from context.
Fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view and current level of romantic discontentment), I don’t often seem to even get to the point where this is an issue.
Is this going to turn into another Nice Guy thread?
Two of the reasons people date online is to widen the net and to avoid some of the shallowness of in-person dating. If only 40% of women are even average, perhaps those goals aren’t viable.
Twenty years ago I met someone on a BBS message board and we are still together.
Although there was some fierce flirting going on, neither one of us was actually on the prowl. We were just wanting to get to know other people. We didn’t provide a lot of statistics or try to impress the other, but we did talk about interests and experiences. We got to know each other very, very well.
For three months no photos were exchanged. When I did receive a photo, it was god-awful – but it was too late. I already loved him. I knew him so well through his words. (Fortunately, in person he is a handsome man.)
My advice is to throw away your check-list and just get to know a lot of people. Be yourself and be open to others. Get over the idea of “dating up” or “dating down.” That attitude itself is a put-off to a lot of women.
Let her see more of your personality rather than your qualifications. Do you know what I mean?
Understand that I’m not shooting for the hottest 2%, nor are any of the other men in this thread, I think - it’s more like the group of women in my peer group; maybe the middle to slightly upper middle 20%. Because even those women in the middle get so many letters from men, some of which are going to have some impressive stats, they have the luxury to choose the top ones.
Since peer women aren’t responding to peer men, the men are left either to date down or stay dateless. The only men they’re replying to are the cream of the crop. Those top 2% of men are having a ball with multiple women.
Yes, occasionally a woman does write; maybe once a month or so. Usually, she’s in what would be considered the far lower end of desirability among men in my peer group; uneducated, more than one or two children, obese, an all-caps moonlit-walk-and-wine-by-the-fireplace profile, and so on.
I’ll try to graph or chart what’s going on; maybe that will better explain it.
You don’t have a peer group when you’re looking for love. There’s only you.
The “dating up” and “dating down” and “peer group” and “lower end of desirability” phrases are setting off every alarm I’ve got. Be an individual. Treat others as individuals. They are people, not statistics.
That seems to suggest that “normal” eons old mating rules don’t apply in the on-line environment. I suspect that’s not the case. Social research suggests that people predominantly do date within their peer group.
There are always people who “don’t get it”. I assure you that I personally know of at least two examples where the obese/unatractive/uneducate rules did not apply. They were none of those but still did not get it. People who do not get it tend to be a bit more vocal/memorable… something…
Okay … so I’ll write to the 38 year old, weather-hardened, third-shift factory working grandmother who likes country music, pick-up trucks, Christ Jesus and “fast harlie’s.” I have to look at her as an individual, after all, on an equal footing with the 34 year old teacher, 37 year old technical writer or 35 year old horticulturist. :rolleyes:
No, real world dynamics do not apply in the online dating world. It isn’t a physical room where there is a roughly equal number of men and women, and you can only focus your attention ony one person at a time. Instead, think of it as a series of job interviews, where 1000 men are applying for 300 jobs. Those 300 employers all pick the best of the lot to hire, so you end up with about 50 actually getting a job, or two, or three, or four.
From what I can tell, about 95% of modern rocket science it is making PowerPoint[less] presentations. The actual fabrication and assembly of a booster seems to be incidental, only necessary to have pictures to put into the presentations. Or, as I like to tell coworkers, “At Socially-Depraved Pasty-Faced Astronautic Systems, we don’t make products; we develop processes.”
They did some stuff backwayback that is pretty cool, though, if you can ignore the purposes to which it is frequently put.
Perhaps speed dating may be worth a try. I recently saw a TV program about an Aussie company that runs events. They are at nice venues with drink and nibbles. It looks like good fun if you have the right attitude. They match the participants by what they express as their “ideal” partner and report that 90% of participants find someone to “match” with.
That’s very true. But the beauty of online dating, at least in many cases, is that you can come in contact with people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Exchanging a couple of emails doesn’t cost anything. Being open minded doesn’t cost anything. I’m not claiming that anyone who is successfully online dating has to do it my way. I’m claiming that if someone is unsuccessfully online dating, maybe they are coming at it from a bad starting point.
Of course, if I had a dime for every time I was wrong, I’d be really rich. Like upper 2% rich.
See, now if I were you, I’d put exactly that into my on-line profile. Shows you’re smart, funny, a bit self effacing… in short… 8/10ths of what a smart woman looks for in a guy. For the other 2/10th, you gotta get into the gym.
A school for this is an excellent idea. I watched a show on TLC, I believe, that dealt with mistakes people make when wanting to meet someone.
The researchers found two fairly attractive people, one man, one woman, that had said they hadn’t had a date in months, maybe years, and didn’t know why. The researchers sent them out to a singles gathering that was rigged with cameras and microphones, and recorded what went on. Then the two people came back the and the researchers gave them tips on what they needed to change.
The girl was painfully shy. Her body language sent out a huge, “I am scared, don’t get to close to me,” message. When anyone did approach her, she backed away immediately. When someone asked her a question, she answered in as few words as possible. She didn’t ask any questions herself.
Later, they reviewed the tape with her. When the researchers pointed out to her that she was not being very outgoing, she replied she was shy, couldn’t help it, that is just how she is. The researcher said, no, you are not shy, you are selfish. She looked shocked. What do you mean selfish? They explained, you are more concerned with how you come across to others, more concerned about saying something stupid or something they won’t like, that you just say nothing. That is being selfish, more concerned about yourself, than attempting to make a connection with someone else. The men who approached you were willing to take the chance of looking stupid, or saying something wrong, just to meet you. You weren’t willing to let your guard down for a moment with them. They took a risk, you weren’t willing to risk anything, that is selfish.
The girl was stunned. She never thought of herself as selfish, but when she considered it, she agreed. She was just too worried about looking foolish to really let herself interact with anyone.
They gave her some lessons on how to have “open body language.” They picked out a flattering outfit for her to wear, not revealing, but something that showed she had nice figure, unlike what she had chosen to wear the first time. And they equipped her with an earphone so the researchers could give her advice as she went out a second time to the singles event.
As she walked in they reminded her to hold her head up, make eye contact, smile, shoulders back, etc. It was amazing to see the difference. They told her a certain guy was checking her out. They told her to look over at him. When she found the guy they were referring to, they said smile. She must have thought it was funny to have all these simple things told to her because when she did look at him she smiled and laughed a bit. It was an adorable smile and giggle. The guy beamed back at her and began to walk towards her. The researchers told her to take a few steps his way to meet him. They exchanged names and basics. The researchers told her to tell him she had noticed his hat, and liked it very much. She did and it made the guy very happy. He told her he had debated wearing it, thought maybe it was too much, but now he was really glad he did, because it made her notice him. She said, “Me too,” which made no sense, so they both giggled over that.
From then on, she was on her own, they talked for hours. She really enjoyed herself, she felt at ease with him and responded to him in a way that made him relax. They exchanged numbers and at the time of the airing of the show were still dating. They showed the guy the tape of her first time to the singles event and he said he never would have approached her that first time. All the advice and tips made the difference. She had no idea how she was coming across. The suggestions they were made were all things she could easily do. She just didn’t know to do them. She said at first it felt strange, but soon she was really enjoying the response she was getting and then it became quite natural.
I didn’t realize this post would be so long to explain. If anyone is interested, I will post about the guy’s experience, but I don’t want to make this any longer.
I just thought it was a fascinating show. I bet everyone could benefit from the experience of seeing yourself through others eyes, especially in the rough world of dating.
I think you are probably being overly pessimistic, and/or are way too impatient. I am a currently 24yr old mail, and I met my wife (of 10 months) on Yahoo Personals in August of 2002. I had been a member for maybe 10 months and in that time went on Four Dates - One ended at Date 1, One resulted in a mostly sexual relationship of 3 months, On one I went on two dates and then she just stopped answering the phone, and on the 4th I met my wife :). In addition during that time I probably IM chatted with a dozen women. Only ever got send messages cold from two women, but some of that is because most women do not pay for the service.
The think I thing I hear most from discouraged guys is… “I spend all this time writing a personal reply and blah blah blah”. Honestly I don’t think that is the most effective use of your time- when I would write to people I had a two paragraph semi-canned response and I would add one or two lines that referenced something in her profile. You are definitely not going to get a response to every message you send out- I think my results were something like 1 in 6 or 7 generated at least some response. One of the things that I noticed was that I was MUCH more likely to get a response if I
Emailed someone with a bad picture or no picture (not an UGLY woman, just one with a poorly lit/old picture etc)
Didn’t put too much detail either in the picture or in my profile - seemed like if you volunteer enough to get them interested but not enough to hit something that they dislike you’ll do better.
Emailed women clearly in my league
Hi Opal !
Honestly I think that while it is true that you have to send out a large number of emails/first contacts, way more than the top 2% of the guys are getting dates. I agree that IF your premise was true online dating would probably crash but in fact I think the opposite is likely to occur as the stigma of being a couple that met on the internet is disappearing, and the generation now reaching adulthood sees online dating as A, if not THE way to find someone to date in the way that you might have gone to a bar, club or social group in the past.
Also, if you are getting 1 in 15 responding, then maybe you need to work on your conversion rate from there - these women have already expressed SOME interest in you, so your sucess rate converting to actual dates here should be reasonable if you work on getting them to contact you on a more personal medium like the telephone.
Personally, I would rather be selfish and shy and attract the man that goes for the quiet girl in the corner. That is the type my boyfriend is attracted to, and I would rather be myself and attract someone like him than try to be someone I am not.
Nice mixed metaphor. In the rocket science world, we often say, “Well, it isn’t brain surgery,” about some challenge. I often wonder if neurosurgeons say to each other, “Well, it isn’t rocket science.”
