Is the model of online dating unsustainable?

I’m a 39 year old single man who uses an online dating/personal ad service.

On paper, I’m a good catch. I’ve got a graduate degree, and I work in a prominent job in a local government agency. I own a nice house in a decent neighborhood. I’ve got all my hair. My height is average - 5’ 10". When I weighed myself yesterday, I tipped the scale at 165 pounds; 10 less than in January, and with about 10 more pounds of gut to lose. I’m fairly attractive, too. (No, I won’t psot a photo.)

However, in the world of online dating, it seems like I’m invisible. For every 10 to 15 letters I send out, I get only one response, which may or may not be positive. I compose literate, unique letters – not cut ‘n paste – with no content that could be considered offensive or sexual. I only pursue women that I feela re “in my league,” who are looking for someone with my stats; I won’t write to a woman who is looking for a man that is 5’ 11" or taller, 38 and younger, athletic, or with an income range that is above mine. Still … nothing.

Men everywhere online, including the SDMB, lament that “women never respond to personal ads.” Women usually respond with “it’s because we’re swamped.” I think this will lead to the eventual downfall of online dating services like Match.com and eHarmony.

Why? Men traditionally have made the first move when it comes to courting. On match.com, or any other online dating service, the same is true. In the real world, where the ratio of single women to men is about 51:49, women tend to get approached by men far more than women. What do you thik would happen when the ratio is 25:75, or 1:3?

Let’s play around with the numbers a bit. Let’s say you’ve got three times as many men as women on an online dating service; for the sake of argument, 1000 women and 3000 men. Let’s also assume they’re all paying members, and all in the same age group, in the same geographic area.

Of those 1000 women, 400 are considered average or better, or “datable” - a passable or better appearance, not overweight, educated, and no significant baggage. Let’s also say that 1200 of those 3000 men meet the same qualifications; average-looking or better, educated, middle-class income or higher.

Another assumption - those 1200 average-or-better men wrote to two women a day, almost always to one of those 400 average-of-better women. That’s 2400 e-mails from guys who are desirable on paper, going to 400 women, which means a woman will recieve six letters a day from decent guys - not to mention the e-mail from from those 1800 other guys that are “below the league” of the 1200 desirable women.

With six contacts from men every day, a woman on our imaginary online dating site will get 42 letters from “desirable” men a week. Who is she likely to pick? The top two most desirable. All things being equal, she’ll pick a guy who is 5’ 11" or taller over me, a guy with a $75,000 income over me, or a guy who is more athletic than me – of which there are plenty in the dating site, because I am not a special and unique snowflake. If I got a response, that means I beat out 40 other men; not very likely.

The next week, the woman will get 42 letters, again picking two to meet. And again, and again, and again, until she runs out of men at about 29 weeks or meets someone, whichever comes earlier. If she didn’t meet the man of her dreams after those 58 dates, she probably won’t go back and contact any of the men she previously rejected or ignored, she deleted their e-mail, it’s unlikely that any of the men will try to write again after being rejected or ignored, and besides, there’s probably going to be a new group of men cycling through that she can pick from.

Now I need help with the math.

400 average-and-up women go on a total of 800 dates in one week.

1200 average-and-up guys send out 16,800 messages as a group in one week.

800 of those e-mails recieve a positive response from the woman at the other end, and results in a date. Those receiving positive responses are likely to be the men with stats at the top end of the bell curve.

I wish I could complete the math, but the conclusion, and what I want to show: a few elite men - maybe the top 2% – go on a lot dates with 40% of the women, while the vast majority of the average-and-up men stay home alone.

Because so few men are dating so many women, they’ll be tagged “players,” and women will think less of the men they meet online. With most men getting ignored unless they “date down,” they’ll get frustrated and leave. A small group of men have a disproportionately large amount of dates, sexual encounters and relationships, nonopolizing the average-and-better women, while the larger group of average-and-better men will meet no suitable women. The model falls apart.

Well?

Looks about right to me. So long as you’re staying in a fairly generic dating pool, this sounds reasonable.

So get out of the pool. Find a more detailed one (see if there’s a dating service that caters to a specific interest of yours) to see if there’s a group where you are one of those top 2%.

Well, by your rules I’m “undatable”. This is pretty typical of many guys online. This is why I don’t date online; people are looking for a set of statistics, rather than an individual who meets certain essential things. Guys I know who date online are very very picky – much more so than they are in real life; maybe this is because there are so many more options instantly available.

I have a male friend who is dating online and has the same problem. In my opinion, it’s because he feels that his above-average income justifies getting a stunningly beautiful mate who is college educated, interesting, intelligent, and funny – and who isn’t a gold-digger. Zuh? Don’t get me wrong, he’s not ugly by any means. Yet, he’s only going after the most beautiful women, and he gets mad when he gets rejected when they meet him because they aren’t attracted to him. These women are all a lot more attractive than his old girlfriend (in my opinion).

If you feel like you’re “dating down”, maybe your expectations are too high or you’re not finding women who share interests that compensate for that. I know for me, finding someone who I would enjoy doing things together with trumps their height or income, or even looks in many ways. Quite frankly, I don’t even care about height at all and it wouldn’t be a factor for me.

I’m having trouble figuring out why you’re not in that top 2%. You sound perfectly fine to me, and I’d be thrilled to find a decent-looking guy (as you said) who can write a coherent sentence on a dating site. (You’d be surprised how rare that is.)

I tried internet dating sites for a while, and sure, I got loads of responses, but 99% of them were semi-literate (“Hey. Yu sond neet. Lets get togeter.”) or offensive (“I’ll bet u have a nice a$$…”) or just plain unintelligible.

Sadly, I spent so much time sifting through that garbage that I didn’t have much time left to contact the guys who sounded promising. Yeah, it is kind of a “swamped” issue. I’m sure there’s a wheat-and-chaff analogy here, but I’m having trouble articulating it.

Well, I can’t type a coherent sentence on the SDMB without making a typo, but I’m more careful with online dating.

Anyhow, I’m not in the top 2% of all men. Really. (I appreciate the kind thoughts, but I don’t want this thread to be seen as a plea for validation.) With so many men writing to a woman, there WILL be someone who just has better overall stats than me – taller, wealthier, more athletic, and so on – who can also draft a coherent, literate message. Given that a woman will have so many prospective suitors, and only a limited time for dating, she can cherry-pick the “elite” men.

How is that different from offline dating?

Online dating is sustainable given a few conditions that may or may not be realistic. I’ll post more when I have more time.

By your description of yourself, we could practially be twins, 'cept for age, and I’ve had even worse turnout than you. I use Spring Street Networks, so I pay for every initial message I send, but responses are free, so it doesn’t cost the women anything to send at least an acknowldegement. As you describe, I only send out messages to women who’s specifications I fit into, and I carefully tailor each letter to be as personal as possible, usually trying to mention something that comes up in their self-description, with nothing offensive or prurient included. To date, I’ve sent out over 250 letters, and have received an even dozen initial responses, with only four successive responses and two coffee dates (plus one stand-up and no explaination), resulting in a grand total of zero actual dates. For this kind of outlay, I could have just hired an escort and gotten a better result (which is not the kind of thing I’m looking for, but just to put it in a hysteric perspective. :rolleyes: )

I’m at a point of whisky-tango-foxtrot, here. Clearly, there’s something I’m doing that is so off-putting that I’m not even worth responding to, but I can’t figure out what it is. I’m not stunningly handsome (yes, I’ve included a few recent photos in the profile) but I’m not hideously disfigured or otherwise physically shocking, either (I’m a solid 5’10", 170lb), and I don’t only post to the most gorgeous women I can find. (In fact, I’ve sent letters to a few women that, in real life, probably wouldn’t meet my desired physical traits, and still no response.) The most I can figure is that there are some deal-breakers in there, but I’m not clear what they are. I do allow a bit of my sense of humor to peek through here and there–for instance, when answering the “five things I couldn’t live without” I put in the five most common elements in organic molecules–and I do have a few requirements, such as “must be a reader” and “no smoking”, but by and large my field is rather open in terms of age, height, skin color, vocation, education level (HS and above), et cetera.

I know I don’t fit the proto-typical LA woman standards of being over six feet, driving a European convertible, and making a middle six-figure income, but I’m morally certain that no every woman in this benighted town is so superficial and gold sniffing.

I canna faigure it, Cap’n. I’m givin’ 'er ever’thin she’s got! I get a better response at bars, and I am not a lounge lizard, clearly. Is there something I’m doing radically wrong, or, as elmwood speculates, is there just something seriously defective about the entire on-line dating scheme?

Stranger

It’s a numbers game. Not unlike the off line world.

Guys tend to pursue, women tend to sit back and pick best fit suiters. Note I said “tend”. It’s been my experience that some women do their fair share of pursuing.

Photos are important. People underestimate the importance of photos. A photo tells a story about the person and looks, dress and indeed local is crucial. Photos with your family, friend or pet are non-starters. Everybody knows you’ve got at least one of those in your life. Don’t showcase them. It’s stupid and desperate. Also, pictures with a drink in your hand with a glazed over look like you’ve had 7 too many are a real turnoff. We get it. You like to party. Join a frat.

Profiles should be sincere but not a personal expose. Don’t talk about your ex. Don’t talk about your politics, money or sexual (mis)adventures or fetishes. There are special sites for that. DO NOT use the word “FUN” in your title or profile. I mean it. Everybody likes fun. Fun. Fun. Fun. It’s annoyingly overused!

Not accusing you of any of this you understand, just illustrating a point.

Do try to be clever and witty but not a standup comedian. Describe your career, hobbies, preferences in general terms. It’s not a CV, you’re not applying for a job. Lastly, remember, no matter how good your profile reads, no matter how good your letters are, your photo will always do 90% of your sales. The witty banter and all will just close the deal… or sink it as the case may be.

I’m sure you write a greate opening letter. Shorten it. Use your best lines and trash the rest. Key in on something specific in the woman’s profile and relate to it in some way. It shows you pay attention to what she took the time to compose. It shows you know how to listen.

Bottom line, I must disagree with your premise. I think it’s a great way to meet people when you don’t have a big social circle or have been away from the scene for an extended period of time. I think on-line dating will grow in popularity and general social acceptability. It think it’s pretty much taken over the more traditional ways for people who are e-savvy.

My $0.02. YMMV.

When I did online ads back in '96, I got thousands of responses. Thousands. It was mindbending.

I tried to answer every damn one if it had the slightest pretense of intelligibility and wasn’t obscene. Most of the time, those responses didn’t get responded to. So it’s not just men who are getting ignored. I was being ignored by people who had already contacted me!

I’d be happy to take a look at any of your “sales pitches” if you want comments.

I met my SO on an internet dating site.
As a female, I got thousands of responses to my profile.
I answered very few.
One guy read my profile, but did not respond to it.
When I read his, I had to respond. He was exactly what I was looking for.
Eloquent, sincere, and most important, he made it very clear that he was not perfect or “not a knight in shining armor”, as he put it. He spoke from the heart.

Anyway, I knew what I was looking for and went after it when I saw it.
I think many women may be that way.

I have never, in several years, gotten any messages from any woman, save for a few nearly unintelligible invitations from Ukranian women seeking a green card and the like. “I am good, sexxxi buety wiath big bazooks & can cok you a grate dinner, be hot in suck. Plese respond and ill make you woth will.” (I actually find this sad rather than amusing because many of these women are no doubt deperate to escape their circumstances.)

I don’t know about the OP, but I keep it to two to three short paragraphs; an intro (“I read your profile and your <hobby/recent book/comment> caught my interest…”), a hook (“I, too, enjoy <favorite cuisine/musical interest/outdoor activity>…Have you tried <restaurant/author/whatever>”), and a closing (“If you are interested in meeting, please let me know and we can <have coffee/meet for a drink/go for a walk>…”).

5% response. <1% meet-cute. 0.00000% actual dinner/activity date. :smack:

At least in the bar scene, I occasionally come across some single mom on a wild night out who just desperately wants a quick zipless thing. It’s not really my game and it never leads anywhere but it’s more response than I get on-line and it’s a lot less aggrevation than one of those stupid “speed date” evenings which gives equally futile results.

Stranger

The whole inudation thing is why I hid my profile on Springstreet. I’ve had more luck (nothing long term but met some interesting guys) when I make the first move. And I’ll be shallow and admit what gets me first is a cute photo. They don’t have to be drop dead gorgeous (actually, I’d find that intimidating) but cute. Then I look at the profile and see if the person seems intelligent and witty (and I always calculate the BMI too). So a really good photo is key.

(and if you want any of us to critique your profiles, I always think that’s really, realy fun. :slight_smile: )

i’m right with you there. i just got out of a relationship (read: dumped) in january, and the whole bar scene is just too random for me, so i’ve been trying the online thing. so far it’s been a crashing failure. my profile ACTUALLY HAS CONTENT. i keep it light, but i explain where i am in life, what i want, some hobbies, things like that. most just say maybe two sentences that mean NOTHING. i need a smart, sarcastic girl. or at least someone who can appreciate that stuff. my ex couldn’t. it’s just impossible to glean any real data from the trash that makes up 90 percent of what people put in their profile.

my initial emails are always fairly well written, as well written and engaging as a email out of the blue can be. i’m not hideous. 6’-2", 180 pounds, 28 years old, creative, i have a good job, own a house, at least i think i’m witty… i just don’t get it.

i say fuck it, though. i’m not going to try and impress anyone. i just lay it all out there, and it’s her job to impress me. if they like it, thye like it, if they don’t, it’s better that they move on. that’s all speculation though, because i’m not actually getting any replies back. i’m doing the yahoo personals thing now, and it’s only been a week, so i haven’t lost all hope yet. okcupid was worthless, there’s not a lot of activity from the area on that site.

i tried speed dating a couple weeks ago. none of the girls really clicked with me, but i thought i KILLED. the next day i got my email from the service, with no matches. i only checked “yes” for 3 out of 13, so i really didn’t have the best odds. disheartening, yes, but it cracked me up. speed dating is just too, ummm, fast? 5 minutes. what can you get out of 5 minutes. initial attraction, and maybe a quick “is this guy an axe-murderer” check.

I find it interesting that people don’t want to “date down” yet get upset when the hottest 2% prefer to date someone else.

I’ve never tried it, but friends of mine who use internet dating swear by it. But it’s not like you are going to pull down some lonely supermodel or anything.

I think you’re missing the point here mate. Dating is all about impressing* somebody. Enough so that they want to know more about you.

*I don’t mean impressing them with your trust account and snazy car.
Aside: This is what I don’t get… people refusing to make an effort but expecting prospective mates to just fall at their feet. If that’s not the height of arrogance, I don’t know what is. :confused:

i’m done with trying to impress women with WORDS. it’s actions that mean something. i’m saying i’m not going to list out my assets on some stupid online form and try to bribe someone into dating me. i’m trying to, as much as the cold, flickering screen will let me, convey something about my personality to whomever’s reading. if they like it, so be it. if they don’t, i’m not going to feverishly try to “fix” myself just to get attention from them.

and in my experience, effort is not necessarily linked directly to success with women. at least the sucess i want. you can’t try that hard. if you kill yourself trying to impress her, to do things for her, she’ll either get bored or walk all over you.

LOL, Stranger! I remember some of those. Sad if they weren’t so ridiculous.

No one said it would be easy. Keep at it. :wink:

Compared to some of these war stories, my brief time on there sounds like a cakewalk. I must have gotten luckier than I deserve to be.

I remember a few years ago. Right after a breakup I put an ad out on yahoo. It must have been ther for over two months with not one response. When my ex-'s latest fling with whoever was over. She asked me to scan some photos I had taken of her and send them to her-I did, suspiciously.

A week later I get a message from her. Any luck?? No? You should really try putting a profile on yahoo. I did and I got 28 responses and it’s only been out there 1 day!

Sometimes I hate being a man.

…and before you ask, yes, my punctuation & spelling was much better than the above post!

I guess I don’t understand what your limits/parameters of trying entail.

I understand this entire process to be essentially social. You chat, flirt, make tactful inquiries about the other person’s likes/dislikes. Make a joke, share a safe personal idiosyncracy and if the banter is fun and easy, set up a coffee date to get a better feel for one another. It never seemed like rocket surgery to me. Cetainly not something I ever felt angry about despite my fair share of pretty disappointing dates.

But that’s just been my experience…