Is the "pick up artist" movement an inherently good or bad thing?

Great Debates
361

To repeat - what about the ones who you do approach and they actually aren’t interested? I’m certain you aren’t claiming that this never happens. And I’m sure you really do believe that you can read it in women’s body language. But then, isn’t your whole mindset basically just to get to yes with the first qualified attendee, and wouldn’t you have every reason to write off the attempts that don’t succeed?

If tonight I walk up to 8 women and hit on them, and say 2 are mildly disinterested, and 2 are mildly interested, and 2 are totally into it, I can definitely report to anybody who’s interested that I had yet another night of smashing successes. And yet there are 2 women out there who can say that some creep put his hand on them, and made a bunch of creepy and unsolicited sexual “witticisms” in response to innocuous statements. Which happens all the time to women all over the place. Maybe for one of those women, it was the third time that night, and she just went home because the place was full of creeps.

And, of course, the worse at the “art” a guy is, the higher the percentage of collateral damage is. But if he hits on 8 chicks in two hours, and gets two numbers and one makeout session, he’s still chalking that up as a night where he was spitting hot fire. Because it’s still the case that who gives a shit how many weren’t having it; they were negative people who weren’t into having fun like I am.

I’m not trying to attack the whole scheme, or anything; this is true of every dating interaction, whether or not there’s a website devoted to a gross cave-salesman lexicography associated therewith. But I feel like the conversation shifted immediately to whether or not it works, as defined by whether or not the dude scores in the end. When you define success by eliminating the failures, of course you can talk about your game like it’s win-win. You aren’t counting something that’s kind of important if the question is whether this whole practice is a net plus or minus. No?

362

You say “Well I gotta’ go find my friends, have a good night!” if the vibe gets akward. I figure that’s better than the “must be a lesbian” “those girls were bitches” mindset some normal guys have haha She doesn’t have to be interested, that’s cool, that’s why I’m talking to her, to figure it out.

You don’t learn anything if you write those off. The game isn’t just to get notches on the bedpost (though again that’s the marketing, and that IS the initial draw of it), it’s about improving yourself socially and all-around, so it doesn’t do any good to write those attempts off. That’s like getting a 51% in your class at school and never going back to learn the stuff you didn’t know, when you want to get a job in that field…you’re just cheating yourself.

When you have a set that doesn’t go good, you go “Okay, what went wrong there, hmm…well I guess I didn’t have enough comfort when I started making innuendo, shit, no wonder she was creeped out! I’d better remember to pay more attention to that in the future!” Back when I started I even apologized to girls once in a while for weirding them out haha These days if I say something that messes the vibe up, I’ll call myself out on it and say “Hey, sorry, I was just trying to flirt there but I’m just saying stupid stuff. Totally my bad, no harm intended k?” and smooth it over. A social guy can fuck up but he knows how to recover from it.

If I touch the small of a girl’s back (which remember, is after she’s given me a signal that I’ve seen from a thousand other women over the years, that she’ll be receptive to it), and if she for some reason tenses up I’ll feel that and go “hey, sorry about that, I was just hanging with my girlfriend so I’m still all touchy-feely haha my bad! No hard feelings, k?” and step back and smooth it over.

You don’t walk up and go “Hello, sperm recepticals!” and cup their vagina. You read their body language, the vibe of the group, and you make little micro-adjustments as you go.

At the start you definately creep some girls out, I’d never say that you don’t. You have no social calibration, so of course you’re gonna’ mess up. But as you get better you get to a point where you don’t really get blown out, because you’re socially calibrated enough that even if things don’t lead to sex, they’re never horrible. It’s like a boxer who gets to a point where it’s going to be EXTREMELY rare for a normal person to catch him with a punch, but at the start he got hit a bunch.

The collateral damage sucks, but the guys doing it are trying to get to a point where they won’t weird girls out anymore. If a guy weirds 50 girls out on his way to making 100 girls have the night of their lives, that’s not so bad. If your goal is to go through life never offending anyone you’re in for a lonely isolated life.

There are a couple styles that teach that kind of thing these days (basically charge in like a rhino and anything that doesn’t fuck you is lame and ignore that), but the traditional method has you look back at your night, the good and the bad interactions, and figure out why they did or didn’t go well. So ya, it was a successful night, but your game still needs work and you know it.

To a PUA a good night out isn’t just fucking a chick. A good night out can be a night where you make friends with a bunch of dudes, or meet a new social circle, or merge multiple social circles and everyone has fun. A good night can simply be getting over your approach anxiety and asking someone for the time.

Hell, since I’ve gotten good I actually take less girls home than back when I started, because now I’m pickier and I have a quality girl I’m seeing regularly who keeps me happy so for me I’m more practicing my social skills than going for a lay. A lot of experienced guys go through the “notches on the bedpost” phase and then come out of it looking for more and that’s where they calm down a bit and their going out is just spreading value to everyone. Cheersing the quiet guy standing on death row and encouraging him to say hello to a girl he’s clearly into…chatting with the bartender and bouncers asking how their night’s going…introducing someone to someone else because you know they’ll get along.

  • TWTTWN
363

And what I’m trying to say is that regardless of the value of the product, some people don’t appreciate a hard-sell. Regardless of how awesome that Lamborghini might be, a lot of people don’t want the salesman to hard-sell you in any case. I’m not saying that what you’re doing is horrible and self-esteem destroying, just obnoxious to some. Sure, you can call it a “negative spin,” but that is the root of the complaint for your detractors.

364

Just to follow this up with clear examples:

A professional chef probably started out making terrible food that tasted horrible. Somewhere out there are a bunch of people who tried their food and it tasted bad, ruined their night, etc. Should the chef just never have started learning to cook even if their current food is considered a delicacy and people line up for the chance to experience it? Would it have been better to just not try learning?

A professional actor probably started out making terrible movies that were horrible to watch. Somewhere out there are a bunch of people who watched their movie and it was awful, ruined their night, etc. Should the actor just never have started learning to act even if their current movies make people laugh and smile or affect their lives in some way? Would it have been better to just not try learning?

A professional masseuse probably started out giving terrible massages that just hurt a few people instead of helped. Somewhere out there are a bunch of people who’ve had terrible massages and it ruined their week. Should the masseuse just never have started learning to cook even if now they help tons of people with their muscle problems? Would it have been better to just not try learning?

I feel for the girls who newbies try learning game on, and the girls I weirded out on my way to where I am, but any skill that involves other people is a skill you’re going to ruin some people’s day with. It sucks, but if you do good with the end result, it can be worth it.

For every story I have of taking a girl out of a bar for a night of wild sex antics, I have stories of cheering up a girl who’s self-conscious about her looks, making a shy guy who’s uncomfortable at a bar feel comfortable because someone’s chatting with them and joking about how silly the bar scene is and taking an actual interest in their lives, calming down a fight by using my social skills to diffuse the situation, introducing one social group to another resulting in a couple of them becoming good friends who’s lives are affected in a positive way by knowing eachother, wingmanning for a friend who meets a girl he gets into a long term relationship, getting everyone in the bar onto the dance floor to dance at the start of the night when everyone is feeling super shy, being social and outgoing enough to invite everyone at work out for regular movie nights, making the cashier laugh during a bad day by dropping a fun joke or comment as I’m on my way out the store, encouraging friends or strangers to be more confident in general or help them see how to handle problems with bullies at work or in their social group…

Those things happen all the time. And they make you feel awesome. But those aren’t the stories that sell $5000 pick-up bootcamps so you don’t read about them.

  • TWTTWN
365

Why is it your job to remind people what to do in social situations? For one, you are most definitely NOT my mom and it boggles my mind that any adult would presume give social etiquette lessons in a public setting. Secondly, I don’t have a wife since I’m a straight female and I don’t like strangers telling me what to do. :cool: Notice however, that both your examples are involving people that are close to you, not some random person that you don’t know.

I’m sure you’re well-intentioned, but like I mentioned before, the tactics are obnoxious to a lot of people. There’s also plenty of people who don’t mind it and if it works well for you, more power to you. Just realize that hey, we’re people too and it doesn’t make us “negative” just because we hate being sold to.

366

Because I’ve participated in thousands of social situations, and if you seem tense and uncomfortable or are acting strange, I’d like to help you shake that off. If you don’t want my help, that’s fine, you’re free to do whatever you like and I’ll legitimately wish you the best and move on, but I’d like to try to help you have fun…and if you’re at a nightclub instead of sitting at home having a private party, it’s kind of implied by the venue that having fun involves talking to people, dancing, etc. :smiley: If you come out to a bar to sit in a corner with your friend and catch up on a serious topic, I’ll notice the body language and wouldn’t be approaching in the first place. If you go to a bowling alley and aren’t bowling, I wouldn’t try to convince you to pick up a ball either, you’re clearly doing your own thing.

I stated earlier “If I hold out my hand and introduce myself in a friendly non-threatening value-offering way, and she doesn’t shake it, she’s being silly and anti-social.”

So would you disagree with the above statement? :confused: Because if snubbing friendly people seems like normal social behavior to you then we’re never going to see things the same and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.

I also stated earlier “She doesn’t have to be interested, that’s cool, that’s why I’m talking to her, to figure it out.” I didn’t say anyone who wasn’t interested was negative, like you’re kind of implying here. Just wanted to clear that part up because you’re sorta’ putting words in my mouth.

  • TWTTWN
367

But at this point isn’t it a hard sell every single time a man comes up to talk to you? Pick-up artistry generally relies on a polite approach that does not automatically turn off the woman the way you are describing. In fact, what they call “opening the set” isn’t even about hitting on a woman at all, it is just about having the opportunity to talk to a woman and be able to gauge any potential interest.

If you’re not interested, most clued-in guys should back off before hitting on you, because part of the game (and, frankly, just being male) is understanding at least the more basic female reactions. In effect the opener is just another daily social interaction, not so different from trying to impress or entertain someone you just met for non-sexual purposes.

My wife gets hit on a lot. Her philosophy is that she will generally not be harsh with a guy who approaches her politely, because she knows it takes a lot of guts for a man to go up to a woman, and because ultimately this kind of attention is a compliment. But if the guy is leery, touchy, creepy, vulgar, etc., she will happily shoot him down in a variety of colourful and entertaining ways. I thik she’s got the right idea.

368

You said it way clearer than I did haha The “hard-sell” examples I gave before are for when you can tell the girl is interested or at least feeling social. You don’t see two girls in a corner clearly in a serious discussion over something and then go up and berate them for not being social until they cave.

Your wife has a great attitude! If a guy crosses the line, he deserves to get shot down, and he should try to learn from it. But pick-up is supposed to teach you to see that line and how it’s different in every interaction, AT different points in each of those interactions (it changes as comfort is built, etc.).

But it’s very easy to tell when a girl is REALLY into you or just being polite out of social obligation. It’s harder for new guys to tell this (that’s why guys fall in love with strippers and waitresses and such who’s job it is to fake interest), but when you get a little experience it’s super easy.

I might approach Abe’s wife joking about something that’s going on in the room, we might chit chat for a minute but I read from her body language and lack of legitimate interest that she’s just being polite and so I eject wishing her a good night and we both had a fun polite interaction.

Or Abe comes up and puts his arm around her and I go “whoops, I didn’t realize she was married, sorry man, my bad!” and wish them both a good night and go on my way. Again this is just a fun polite interaction all around.

  • TWTTWN
369

That’s pretty much it (although you might save yourself some time by looking at her fingers first!). That’s why I’d rather have pick-up artists approach my wife instead of seeing her harrassed by average vulgar louts who display little respect for women. I know I will never have to worry about dealing with the pick-up artist because he will quickly sense my wife’s lack of interest, whereas there’s a decent chance the louts will need handling after they’ve been rebuffed a few times.

370

haha learning to spot the ring finger is actually one of the first things a PUA naturally ends up doing. :slight_smile: My friend and I will even watch for rings on the girls the OTHER one of us is talking to and give the “dude, ring finger, married” signal to him so he can make a polite exit or drop all the flirty stuff and stick to just being friendly.

Often if we realize the girl is married we’ll ask her if any of her friends out with her are single and because we were friendly cool guys she’ll let us know which girls in her group are single or introduce us. :slight_smile:

  • TWTTWN
371

Our experiences are definitely very different. I hate clubs with a passion so I don’t go very often, however, it’s often stated by my friends that they go so they can dress up, get drunk, and dance together. Not to pick up guys. I didn’t realize we were limiting discussion of PUA behavior to clubs and bars though, but that’s fair enough since that’s where this style is most prevalent it seems.

Yeah, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. Sure, it would be nice and friendly of her to shake your hand, but I think that pointing out her reluctance was far ruder than the initial snub. My view is that adults shouldn’t try to teach other adults proper social behavior.

Well, when you say that strangers who don’t want to shake your hand are “anti-social” and that people who don’t enjoy clubs are “negative people,” the implications seem to suggest exactly that. I did, however miss the earlier statement, so sorry about that.

I disagree though, that it’s always a hard-sell when a man comes up to a women. In fact, I think most of the time, it’s usually a soft-sell. What differentiates a soft-sell from a hard-sell can be seen in the examples that I quoted from TheWhoToThe WhatNow earlier. Soft-sells don’t contain negs that makes a person feel “flustered” or “silly.” This isn’t to say that PUA’s don’t do soft-sells either, it’s just that TheWhoToThe WhatNow’s examples struck me as being very much a hard-sell that deliberately picks out flaws just so he can have a one-up over the woman.

Anyway, my main point is that yes, I understand where TheWhoToThe WhatNow and Abe are coming from, but I disagree. Both of you only talk to the ladies that seem receptive and you’re good enough to tell who would be receptive to you now that you have plenty of experience. There’s plenty of guys who don’t and you’d argue that it’s a learning curve - but that doesn’t mean we have to like it. Afterall, telemarketers are just doing their job and the really nice ones who are selling just what we need aren’t too bad, but overall, they’re still annoying.

Thanks for the civil and interesting discussion though, but I won’t have a lot of time to follow up this weekend. I think we can chalk this one up to a difference in lifestyle and experiences. Have a good weekend partying it up, guys!

372

Considering some of the self-delusions I’ve seen on the internet, I’m not really convinced that’s true.

When, for example, pretty much every waitress says, “I don’t like when customers flirt with me” and then guys say that the waitresses they flirt with really enjoy it, I have a tough time believing it’s the waitresses who are inaccurate.

373

Can’t quote easy because I’m on my phone but quick:

Tako: I can soft-sell but that’s usually for the timid/shy girls. My personal type of woman is the outgoing shit-talking type so I tend to use the hard-sell style stuff I described because those girls respond well to it and they’re the ones I go for. It’s all calibration for different personality types. Shy/quiet girls I’ll just be friendly and that’s enough, no game needed beyond confidence and a smile.

But I think you’re right, we’ll have to chalk it up to different life experiences! Thanks for the civil discussion! I’m amazed no one has pitted me off this thread haha

jsgoddess - as a guy I may be more privvy to overhearing how guys flirt with waitresses but if you heard it you’d understand the difference. Most guys are absolutely awful at it and think they’re awesome and Ive actually had to apologize to waitresses for my friends (non-PUA guys who don’t get that waitresses have to flirt) off to the side. I’ve flirted with thousands of women, worked with waitresses, and dated them, so I can tell if a girl is legitimately into it or not. :slight_smile:

But I definately agree that most guys aren’t calibrated enough to realize the waitress is rolling her eyes to the bartender after she stops by the table :slight_smile:

  • TWTTWN
374

Which is what you would say, see, because you are trying to convince me of something.

I can only go by what you write here. It’s true that the written word may not convey what incredible charm and whatnot you have going for you, but eh. I don’t really feel any reason to put much credence in what you’re saying. We have other posters who seem pretty convinced that women are simply falling all over themselves for them, that they are the epitome of smooth, that other men may not know when the waitress really isn’t into it but they know. I’ve heard it before. Sorry that it’s not super plausible to me.

And, just as a point of reference, I am in sales. I’ve dealt with sales people every day (not for much longer, knock on wood). I deal with customers. You’d be amazed the number of times customers have come to me complaining about something a salesperson did not five minutes after the salesperson came to me crowing about how they knocked 'em dead. It would be diverting if it weren’t my problem.

375

It doesn’t really matter. The grand majority of the human race has absolutely no problem getting laid, there is 7 billion of us after all. I could make a PUA book with one line that said “turn off your world of warcraft, go outside and talk to girls” and it would be just as effective as whatever method you or the other guys use, the difference is the socially awkward guys wouldn’t listen to me. It’s not the method that works, its the socializing.

376

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it just prejudice?

377

The evidence is all around you, it’s what he said: There are 7 billion of us. So people are getting laid without taking courses on how to do it.

378

And those men who aren’t getting laid ought to just know their place, right? :rolleyes:

379

That’s true, but it doesn’t help an individual guy who isn’t having much luck.

Your (and the quoted post’s) inference from “there are 7bn people” to “lots of people are getting laid” is a good one; the inference from that to “therefore all any guy needs to do to get laid is get off the computer” is an awful one.

I’ve known a few guys who had no trouble socialising with women, but who for one reason or another (actually: they were a bit ugly, and very needy) the women never saw them as ‘sexy material’. I saw this a lot in college. So frankly I think it’s bollocks when you say the only useful thing about the PUA stuff is just getting off the computer.

These guys really needed to learn that doing lots of errands for target girl, and becoming her friend, and giving her ‘friendly’ hugs on the sofa were actually a little bit creepy, and not a good way to get sexed up.

pdts

380

Dude? Comparing women to things is not doing your case any good. It’s disgusting.
A woman is not an undercooked steak, a shitty movie, or whatever. And the fact is, if you’re doing this to women, then women get to have an opinion about it.

Did you ever even bother to notice that joking about roofies is basically joking about date rape?